Curious about Enlarging Taylor Bridge Spacing

[ChrisN]

Typical Taylor post-200 series has 1 3/4 nut and 2 3/16 bridge spacing. I don't know the width at the 12th fret. Stock string placement appears 2.5-3.0 mm from the edges at the 12th.

Has anyone here filled/drilled to take Taylor bridge spacing from 2 3/16 to 2 1/4?

If so, in your subjective or objective opinion, was there was still enough room to keep E and e strings from falling off during non-aggressive fingerstyle playing?

[Frank Ford]

Shouldn't be an issue to move the strings 0.4mm closer to the edge.

On the other hand, you don't gain much going from 2-3/16 to 2-1/4 string spacing.

So before crossing that bridge, give it a try by notching the saddle to pull the strings over the desired amount. At leas then you can see exactly what you'll get when you go deeper. . .

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

Shouldn't be an issue to move the strings 0.4mm closer to the edge.

On the other hand, you don't gain much going from 2-3/16 to 2-1/4 string spacing.

So before crossing that bridge, give it a try by notching the saddle to pull the strings over the desired amount. At leas then you can see exactly what you'll get when you go deeper. . .

Thanks Frank. A "try before I buy" via the notching makes sense.

I'm still in my experimental phase where I'm trying different fits because I don't know what works for me, now or in the future. The "better" fingerstyle guitars (eg Goodall) seem to default to 2 1/4, while Bourgeois likes 2 5/16. Not too many makers favor 2 3/16 for playing primarily fingerstyle, but admittedly, some do. I understand widening the spacing at the bridge effectively slows the guitar for pick work, and Taylor wants broad appeal to pickers and fingerstylists so they went with 2 3/16 (I'm guessing, as a compromise).

And while plenty of folks easily fingerpick Martin's 2 5/32 (just shy of 2 3/16 to keep the E + e from falling off the "2 1/8 @ 12th" measurement), the AGF consensus also seems to favor 2 1/4 over 2 3/16 for fingerstyle. I make more finger flubs with 2 3/16 than I do with 2 1/4, and even fewer with 2 5/16, but that's likely a function of my newb-ness to guitar generally. I'm also aware that Spoon Phillips has played fingerstyle on every spacing for many years, but now says (onemanzguitar.com) he probably should have never strayed from 1 11/6 and 2 3/16 (you can imagine my confusion). Of course, he previously also said that Martin's 2 1/4 spacing was their sweet spot (more confusion). Especially painful for me is the 2 1/8 on my Ami that I've seen others play beautiful fingerstyle pieces on. It ain't pretty, and my hands/fingers are mediums, at best. Point is, I know it can be done, with practice/time. I just want to spend my time as profitably as possible, without wasting any due to trying to fit a square peg into a round hole.

I've got a Taylor (or 3) that I really like and want to keep long-term, so the above reasons are why I'm exploring spacing alteration possibilities. Thanks again for the info.

[Earl49]

FWIW I learned finger style (75% of my playing) on a Sigma D-28 clone then a real D-28 and other Martin's. These days I mostly play Taylor and Rainsong guitars.

I could not tell you the string spacing at the bridge on any of my guitars without measuring it. While I am sensitive to neck carve and nut width, apparently string spacing is not a critical component - for me.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Earl49

FWIW I learned finger style (75% of my playing) on a Sigma D-28 clone then a real D-28 and other Martin's. These days I mostly play Taylor and Rainsong guitars.

I could not tell you the string spacing at the bridge on any of my guitars without measuring it. While I am sensitive to neck carve and nut width, apparently string spacing is not a critical component - for me.

That's helpful info. I'm guessing the Sigma/Martin guitars had similar relatively narrow bridge spacing, compared to your Taylor, though it's possible they all used 2 3/16. If so, you wouldn't notice any difference. Don't know what Rainsong you have, but it apparently could be 2 5/32 or 2 1/4 -http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=352771

I've been moving regularly among my Ami (2 1/8) to Taylor (2 3/16), Journey (2 1/4) and RK (2 5/16) and I'm amazed at the difference such a small amount of space can make in allowing a comfortable finger-fit between the strings without hitting the string below. Blindfolded, I could tell you which spacing I had in hand.

I completely get the POV "play it, you'll get used to it," but I'm not sure that view's for me. I could probably get used to any of them, given enough time, but I'd like to focus on the one that will enable me to most efficiently use my time without having to compensate for a less-than-perfect fit. So far, I like 2 1/4 as the compromise. 2 5/16 is certainly the easiest, but I also see the issue of having the strings that much farther apart - note decay and slower picking/strumming. I love my Taylors, and am hopeful I can make them work (or get me to work them better). I'm getting old - can't afford to waste time!

[Earl49]

For six strings, I have a 2001 Rainsong WS-1000 (original N1 neck), a Blackbird Lucky 13, a CA Cargo, a Seagull S6, a Teton parlor, and a variety of Taylor's from 100 to 600 series, plus a T5 classic. I can move between all of them easily with only a few moments of adaptation to different neck shapes and scale lengths, with 22.75" being the shortest and 25.5" the longest. I also have a custom Emerald CF twelve string with 1-7/8" nut width and 24.6" scale.

They may all have the same string spacing at the bridge -- I haven't noticed enough difference to be worth measuring. But I certainly get how it might be a critical dimension for some. 2-1/8" sounds pretty tight to me. Franks Ford's idea of notching a saddle to force wider spacing sounds like an easy test.

For the record, I have fairly blunt, meaty fingertips (some have called them "bass player fingers") and I finger pick with bare nails. I also play tenor ukulele and electric bass, so I'm used to switching necks over a wide range.

[mirwa]

Some of the ES pickup systems used a grounding plate as well on the underside of the bridge, this would also need to be modified if you decided to relocate bridge pins.

Saddle slotting is a far less aggressive modification.

Steve

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Earl49

For six strings, I have a 2001 Rainsong WS-1000 (original N1 neck), a Blackbird Lucky 13, a CA Cargo, a Seagull S6, a Teton parlor, and a variety of Taylor's from 100 to 600 series, plus a T5 classic. I can move between all of them easily with only a few moments of adaptation to different neck shapes and scale lengths, with 22.75" being the shortest and 25.5" the longest. I also have a custom Emerald CF twelve string with 1-7/8" nut width and 24.6" scale.

They may all have the same string spacing at the bridge -- I haven't noticed enough difference to be worth measuring. But I certainly get how it might be a critical dimension for some. 2-1/8" sounds pretty tight to me. Franks Ford's idea of notching a saddle to force wider spacing sounds like an easy test.

For the record, I have fairly blunt, meaty fingertips (some have called them "bass player fingers") and I finger pick with bare nails. I also play tenor ukulele and electric bass, so I'm used to switching necks over a wide range.

I'm sure I'm overthinking it, but I'm also trying to narrow my burgeoning collection of "let's try this" results (meaning, too many guitars in the house). I don't want to be one of those guys who does the same thing for X years, THEN tries something different and laments all the time he spent doing the first thing when he'd have been happier doing the second. I see those posts all the time.

2 1/8 is narrow, but not as narrow as the 2" on a Les Paul - and I've seen plenty of folks fingerpicking those, too. I'm sure it's a matter of practice and technique and I'll end up like you someday. That'd be nice.

By posting here, I was hoping that someone had done the spacing mod to a Taylor so I could determine if the stock Taylor neck could still accommodate the extra 1/16 - Frank thinks it should work, but I will try the notched saddle method first to see if it would be worthwhile to do.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Some of the ES pickup systems used a grounding plate as well on the underside of the bridge, this would also need to be modified if you decided to relocate bridge pins.

Saddle slotting is a far less aggressive modification.

Steve

Another good point re: grounding - I have one w/ES2. I'm just kicking the tires on this idea, wanting to see if it's been done yet.

Re: Saddle notching alone - I've seen other posts where those who've done it have experienced weird buzzes for some reason, so I'd try it is an experiment to see if I liked it, but would opt for the aggressive mod, or a different guitar, if I wanted 2 1/4 long-term.

[mirwa]

Cool, ES2 does not have a grounding circuit, they completely redesigned the pickup side of the system on that model

Steve

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by ChrisN

Re: Saddle notching alone - I've seen other posts where those who've done it have experienced weird buzzes for some reason, so I'd try it is an experiment to see if I liked it, but would opt for the aggressive mod, or a different guitar, if I wanted 2 1/4 long-term.

I suspect that reported problem may be very wide slots that allow the string to roll back and forth as it vibrates, or even jump out of the slot in the first place. I would cut the wider spaced saddle slots much like nut slots -- enough slot to hold the particular string, not 3X as wide as the string. Just a thought.

And while I'm thinking out loud, I *always* start with a new nut or saddle blank. Leave the original part untouched, so you can go easily back to the starting condition just by swapping back the original part. Learned this the hard way.....

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by mirwa

Cool, ES2 does not have a grounding circuit, they completely redesigned the pickup side of the system on that model

Steve

Whether or not I do the spacing, do I run into any ES2 problem if I notch the bridge for solid pins?

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Earl49

I suspect that reported problem may be very wide slots that allow the string to roll back and forth as it vibrates, or even jump out of the slot in the first place. I would cut the wider spaced saddle slots much like nut slots -- enough slot to hold the particular string, not 3X as wide as the string. Just a thought.

And while I'm thinking out loud, I *always* start with a new nut or saddle blank. Leave the original part untouched, so you can go easily back to the starting condition just by swapping back the original part. Learned this the hard way.....

Good points. Thanks

Also, I note you use nails, only, while I currently use flesh with a small nail finish, which is why I think I'm running into tight spacing. Practice may make perfect, however.

[Earl49]

Chris, I notice a distinct difference when I am forced to trim my nails off entirely (yard work, car mechanics) versus the normal 1/16" of visible nail. It takes me a few minutes to adapt my technique when the nail is not there, picking with flesh only. These are tiny differences in picking position, and adjustment is needed.

[ChrisN]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Chris, I notice a distinct difference when I am forced to trim my nails off entirely (yard work, car mechanics) versus the normal 1/16" of visible nail. It takes me a few minutes to adapt my technique when the nail is not there, picking with flesh only. These are tiny differences in picking position, and adjustment is needed.

That makes sense. On the one hand, I think my lack of experience is to blame, but on the other hand, I see some mighty fine fingerstyle guitars aimed at very experienced players w/the 2 1/4 spec (Olson, Lowden, and many others). I'm aim toward the saddle slotting and go from there.