The influence of the neck on tone?

[Von Beerhofen]

I don't think you can consider a guitar as the sum of it's components but a heavier neck will usually produce more sustain as it absorbs less of the string's vibrations.

Ludwig

[reholli]

Originally Posted by epaul

...

If you feel the guitar neck vibrating, you could ask yourself, where is this energy that is making the neck vibrate coming from? If the energy is coming from the body of guitar, the soundbox, which it most likely is, then that is energy that is being drained, stolen, pilfered, absconded from, the sound box itself. A guitar only produces so much energy at the bridge, and the less of it that leaks out to the neck in an attempt to vibrate a solid chunk of not very acoustically efficient wood, the better. Or so one might think.

...

Actually, I don't think vibration in the neck is most likely coming from the sound box. I think the same effect that creates vibration in the soundbox at the string/saddle juncture creates vibration in the neck at the string/nut/neck/headstock juncture. The physical models are similar, and playing up and down the neck of my guitars, the vibration is definitely stronger in the neck the closer one gets to the nut, while fading away towards the body. Not being an acoustical engineer, physicist, structural engineer, or anything else, I could be totally wrong, though...

[Wade Hampton]

Yes, the neck has an effect on the tone of a guitar. Mahogany necks have a warmer low end response than maple necks. Maple-necked acoustic guitars tend to sound a little bit brittle in comparison.

Where the effect of the wood of the neck is especially dramatic is on banjos. Any serious banjoplayer can tell you that maple-necked banjos with Mastertone tone rings will sound considerably different than mahogany-necked banjos with the same hardware, while walnut-necked banjos with the same style hardware will sound about halfway between the two.

I understand that many acoustic guitar players instinctively feel fear and loathing whenever banjos enter the discussion, but - like it or not - the neck is part of the vibrational units that make up acoustic instruments, and what they're made out of matters. While this is more dramatic on a banjo, and more easily isolated (since you can switch out hardware and necks in minutes with the turn of a few wrenches) the same principle applies to a lesser degree on acoustic guitars.


Wade Hampton Miller

[epaul]

Originally Posted by reholli

Actually, I don't think vibration in the neck is most likely coming from the sound box. I think the same effect that creates vibration in the soundbox at the string/saddle juncture creates vibration in the neck at the string/nut/neck/headstock juncture. The physical models are similar, and playing up and down the neck of my guitars, the vibration is definitely stronger in the neck the closer one gets to the nut, while fading away towards the body. Not being an acoustical engineer, physicist, structural engineer, or anything else, I could be totally wrong, though...

Maybe, but whether the vibration you feel in the neck is coming from the soundbox or from the "moving nut" as you fret your way up the neck, the energy will be less as the string becomes shorter. So, noting less vibration in the neck as you fret upwards, of and by itself, doesn't establish whether the decline in neck vibration is from less string vibrating the now shorter neck or from less string energy vibrating the soundbox, which in turn has less energy to transfrer the neck.

I see your point, however. There would be a string energy transfer at the nut or fretted fret.

The question could be settled by recording a tune on a guitar, and then removing the neck and playing the exact same tune to see if there is any difference in volume between the two samples. Alan? You up for this one?




.


( )

[harmonics101]

Of course the neck influences tone.

I'm thinking the neck influences PLAYABILITY a lot more though,

Harmonics101

Maybe that's stating the obvious. I guess what I'm trying to say is the soundboard (top) and braces contribute significantly more to tone than neck

[acou57]

Originally Posted by Mark Stone

I'm looking forward to reading the answers!

Agreed. It's been a very informative discussion so far. I didn't realize how much each part of the guitar effects the tone.

[harmonics101]

Wade, I'd figure the neck on a banjo would make more difference cuz a banjo doesn't have a sound box (for a lack of a better term) or any braces.

Therefore, the neck contributes more to tone as a percentage of the whole.

On an acoustic, the percentage of contribution of tone from the neck perspective is less.

I've crunched the numbers and ran them through my Texas Instruments and that's what the final number tells me

Harmonics101

[dneal]

Originally Posted by NY NY

Just curious and no offense. Is anyone who has answered so far a luthier or tech?

Alan Carruth is.

[Wade Hampton]

Oh, no question about it, Harmonics, the wood of the neck definitely has a more noticeable effect on banjo - I think the phrase I used was "more dramatic." But the same principles apply on guitar, and in those rare circumstances where you can compare otherwise identical guitars, one with a maple neck, the other with mahogany, the differences are still quite noticeable.

Now, this wouldn't be the Internet if we didn't have someone pop up and say: "How can you POSSIBLY claim that two acoustic guitars are otherwise identical, given the differences between one top and another, yadda yadda yadda, etcetera, etcetera, etcetera..."

To which I will say: Yes. Even so.

Yes, there are lots more things on an acoustic guitar that have a bigger influence. Even so, you can HEAR a difference between a mahogany neck and a maple neck and you can FEEL a difference. The two woods transmit sound differently, and the flex (or lack of flex) under your hands when you play feels different, too.

Honestly, I like maple necks on banjos and insist on them on mandolins, but don't care much for them on acoustic guitars. To me, mahogany necks tend to sound sweeter and more musical on guitars than maple necks do.

Hope that makes sense.


Wade Hampton Miller

[00-28]

Originally Posted by NY NY

Just curious and no offense. Is anyone who has answered so far a luthier or tech?

I framed houses when I was young, that's almost the same thing. ...Mike

[reholli]

Originally Posted by Von Beerhofen

I don't think you can consider a guitar as the sum of it's components but a heavier neck will usually produce more sustain as it absorbs less of the string's vibrations.

Ludwig

Ludwig...

Why would a guitar not be the sum of its components?

[blue]

There is a platform where you can test this... National guitars. If you find a shop that sells and keeps them in stock, you can certainly find single cones with maple and mahogany necks. Heck you might even find a "shootout" on youtube. The resonator body will let you compare the neck sounds. Although there may be some issues with nut material, as in bone vs. ebony. I'm not up on the last few years single cone models.

[Alan Carruth]

There's a persistent belief that the neck to body joint influences the sound. It's possible that it does, of course, but the problem is isolating variables well enough really be able to say.

I have made several Classical 'test mules' using the same neck (it saves time), which can be easily swapped out. It's basically held on by string pressure: there are a couple of pins in the end of the fingerboard on the neck that plug into holes in the stub fingerboard on the box to locate it, and a bolt through the neck block and neck keeps the thing from folding up. This is pretty similar to the old Stauffer adjustable neck, and I've seen modern ones that work more or less the same way, but with the guts decently hidden. On mine there's a gap between the end of the heel and the box of about 1/4". I have never been able to detect a difference in the sound of the guitar whether that gap is filled with a wedge and snugged down tight or not. Without the wedge you can just pull the head right back until the strings ground out on the 12th fret, so you'd think there would be a difference in the way it 'transmitted vibration'. This suggests there is either no difference, or no vibration to transmit. BTW, I've seen this same joint used on the neck of a very fine sounding guitar that Manuel Valasquez built for John Bigelow.

And, yes, NY NY: I've been a builder for over forty years, done my share of repair, and published a few papers on guitar acoustics too, so I guess I'm entitled to an opinion. For that matter, there are other folks in this thread who's opinions I respect, even if they're not makers or techs: Wade Hampton Miller being one.

Speaking of which: as far as I can see, banjos and solid body guitars have a lot in common. Both have relatively thin necks joined to a massive and rigid body. The banjo, of course, has a has that is light and mobile, instead of a massive and hard bridge and top, which is why you can hear it when its not plugged in. I suspect that banjos fall somewhere between acoustic and electric guitars in terms of the influence of the neck material, but I don't have data to back that up.

[WordMan]

Fascinating; thank you Alan. Could the fact that your test guitar was nylon-stringed have any bearing? I'm not looking to split hairs; just thinking about other areas where Classicals are diff vs. Steel, e.g., bracing.

[Steadfastly]

Originally Posted by lennylux

No matter how this is answered it's going to be opinion based, tone is subjective and people often hear what they want to hear, the only way to really do it would be to take a bunch of guitars, record them for a spectrum analysis, detach the necks from these guitars and rotate them around each box, repeating the recording process again each iteration, then take the detailed spectrum analysis results and base comparison results on a final report that would cover exactly those guitars that had participated in the test alone, no others.

Everything else is waffle and fodder......

I agree on the tone that it is subjective and always will be.

There is a maker of wide-neck electric guitars and they make the point that there is more material in there necks, the sustain is greater, which makes sense to me. They actually did a test which seemed to bear this out.