recording with rosewood and mahogany

[b1j]

In deciding which guitar to use for which voice (part) of my current project, I opted to use my two rosewood bodies for the primary melody, and the two mahogany dreads for the harmonic structure under the melody. It was a good decision.

I'm blown away by how the HD-28 flowed into the mics (spaced pair sE8s) like honey. Many notes, and especially the extended ones, just blossomed. Even the high-strung Gurian shone in this regard. An octave higher than the HD-28, the notes are no less bell-like. Even the wave forms in the rosewood tracks look different from those of the mahogany guitars: you can see the nodes and resonances! Both rosewood guitars deserved to take the melody.

The harmonic parts underneath are rhythmic 16th notes that are really split dyads (e.g. A-E-A-E-G-E-G-E). The mahogany kept the resonances in check and gave me the clear, fundamental notes that provided a platform for the resonant melodies and were crucial for avoiding a pulsing mud sound.

Why have I not noticed this before? It may be that this was the first session with my new absorption panels. I made an 8-foot-diameter, 4-foot-high 3/4 circle around me and the mics in the middle of a 13x19 foot room. I aimed the mics downward from 42 inches above the floor toward the treble half of the guitars, so the mics were also looking down to the corner of the floor and the panels behind me, and picked up less from the room above the 4' high panels. I suspect this enhanced the pure tones of the guitars. I was so eager to get going with tracking that I didn't do any experimentation with various mic/panel/room/distance configurations. I just went on intuition, and for now, I've achieved a new Personal Best of tone.

Just wanted to share that observation. There are no chords, no strumming, only 4 or 5 melodies in counterpoint. I am excited to discover what I can produce with my primary genre, Americana, which involves lots of strumming and picking. And what I might get out of tweaking the mic setup.

But rosewood vs. mahogany: the difference is audible.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Heh heh. Up to a point, no doubt. But about then years ago, I recorded over a hundred tunes, some with a rosewood/spruce Martin 2-28 and some with a mahogany/spruce Guild D-35. Listening now, I can't tell which is which.

One reason is what engineers call psycho-acoustics: Our brains can fool our ears. We hear what we think we hear. If you show fans pictures of Jimmy Page playing a Les Paul through a Marshall stack, they don't hear his Telecaster played through his Supro on Led Zep I.

A few years ago, there was a many-page debate at the Telecaster forum over whether Grady Martin played steel or nylon strings on "El Paso." Is that steel or nylon? Are you 100% sure? Pro guitarists at the Tele forum couldn't agree. Even when someone chimed in that his father used to record at the same studio and knew exactly which guitar was used on the song, one guy still argued.

So here are some of the songs I recorded ten years ago: Dreadnot. Can you tell which tracks are the Guild and which are the Martin? I can't!

[b1j]

In a pop or Americana mix with bass and drums and maybe 2 or 3 guitars, I wouldn’t expect to hear distinct tone profiles to where I could call out body materials. The piece I’m working on now, though, has each note right out in the open, one note at a time. That’s probably why the tone difference is noticeable.

I will say that in one of my songs from last year the J-45 handles the primary picking foundation and the HD-28 takes the up-front fills, and the tone difference is striking. And that song has bass, drums, vocals and BGVs, electric lead, and MIDI horns. (Not all at once!)

I’m developing into using a zone-offense strategy for the two woods in my collection. I probably exaggerate the expected effect by the way I record them and treat them in the mix.

[Charlie Bernstein]

Originally Posted by b1j

In a pop or Americana mix with bass and drums and maybe 2 or 3 guitars, I wouldn’t expect to hear distinct tone profiles to where I could call out body materials. The piece I’m working on now, though, has each note right out in the open, one note at a time. That’s probably why the tone difference is noticeable.

Good points, good clarification. If it matters, four of those Dreadnot tunes, "Hard Rock Hammer," "Laika's Lament," "B-17," and "The Crossing," have just one guitar each and no other instruments. Total transparency. Right out in the open.

Originally Posted by b1j

I will say that in one of my songs from last year the J-45 handles the primary picking foundation and the HD-28 takes the up-front fills, and the tone difference is striking. And that song has bass, drums, vocals and BGVs, electric lead, and MIDI horns. (Not all at once!)

I’m developing into using a zone-offense strategy for the two woods in my collection. I probably exaggerate the expected effect by the way I record them and treat them in the mix.

I'm certainly sure we can hear big differences between your guitars' voices — and hope it didn't sound like I was suggesting we couldn't! I'm just thinking that a listener won't necessarily be able to translate the differences into That's mahogany, that's rosewood. As I mentioned, listeners can't even always tell steel from nylon or a Les from a Tele.

It's part of the fun of recording: Is it live, or is it Memorex? Only your hairdresser knows for sure!

[Charlie Bernstein]

PS — And as for the pain of recording: After recording over a hundred tunes in hundreds of hours, I finally figured out that you can't dial in talent.

I suspect your guitars are in better hands than mine were!

[runamuck]

I occasionally make guitars and have a fairly trained ear. I've done a blind test, live in the room, where I could not consistently guess which was Mahogany and which guitar was EI Rosewood on 5 different and various model guitars.

[DupleMeter]

Yeah, it's amazing how choosing the right instrument for the right part is so huge.And, the more sparse the arrangement the bigger of a difference it makes.

And I feel the same about electrics. Sometimes you just need a Strat, sometimes the song calls for a 335, and other times you just want to hear that Tele bite.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by DupleMeter

Yeah, it's amazing how choosing the right instrument for the right part is so huge.And, the more sparse the arrangement the bigger of a difference it makes.

And I feel the same about electrics. Sometimes you just need a Strat, sometimes the song calls for a 335, and other times you just want to hear that Tele bite.

That’s it exactly. My arrangement is sparse.

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by runamuck

I occasionally make guitars and have a fairly trained ear. I've done a blind test, live in the room, where I could not consistently guess which was Mahogany and which guitar was EI Rosewood on 5 different and various model guitars guitars.

That sounds about right.
The back wood is not as important as the top, bracing, thicknesses, etc. When going from maker to maker some mahogany guitars are darker and more rich than rosewood. In fact, my darkest and most overtone heavy guitar has a mahogany back. People give the back wood FAR too much credit when there are many other factors that have more influence on the tone. I think the whole debate comes from a time when people had few choices.

[b1j]

Originally Posted by Bowie

That sounds about right.
The back wood is not as important as the top, bracing, thicknesses, etc. When going from maker to maker some mahogany guitars are darker and more rich than rosewood. In fact, my darkest and most overtone heavy guitar has a mahogany back. People give the back wood FAR too much credit when there are many other factors that have more influence on the tone. I think the whole debate comes from a time when people had few choices.

You might have a point there. Scalloped braces probably contribute something. That’s the only other build difference, and maybe it outweighs the tonewood? Fun to muse about, but I’ll never know which it is.

Oh yeah. Mediums on D-18, lights on HD-28. Make that three differences.

[FrankHudson]

This is one where I'm somehow in agreement with both sides of this discussion.

I record a lot. I'm not a great player or recordist, but I'm very active in that area.

I believe that rosewood can bring something special when it's a sparcer part, more exposed. I sold my rosewood/spruce OM some years back because my hands couldn't tolerate it's low "vintage style" frets. I miss it all the time, often think that I need a guitar to replace it.

Which doesn't mean that even when I owned that guitar that I didn't have things where mahogany (or other b&s woods) guitars were my choice.

And here's the bottom line, mentioned by someone upthread: listening to older recordings of my own, made with my own guitars, recorded by me, I'm often not completely sure what acoustic guitar is on the track. Strings, picks, mic location, playing mood that day, choices made when mixing -- they all confuse things to the point that a particular model of guitar, much less the b&s woods alone, are obscured.

[ghostnote]

All of the points in this thread make some kind of sense, even though I don’t necessarily agree with the methods used to record - mainly because there is no wrong way if you get the results you want. When I’m recording a song I wrote, I use the guitar I wrote it on for the framework. It’s just what I’ve always done. I’m not in pursuit of perfection or pristine production. (wow, that’s a lot of accidental alliteration!) I’m probably not capable of that, but I do want the best result I can get, and I think that recording method and mics make more difference than the guitar material. I do use multiple guitars on most recordings, but I don’t pay attention to what they’re made of - I don’t consciously get to that level of detail. The truth is that most guitars will work out well.

[Bowie]

Originally Posted by b1j

You might have a point there. Scalloped braces probably contribute something. That’s the only other build difference, and maybe it outweighs the tonewood? Fun to muse about, but I’ll never know which it is.

Oh yeah. Mediums on D-18, lights on HD-28. Make that three differences.

"Only"? If your only guitars are Martin dreads, yes. When you go to different brands a whole world opens up. In bracing alone you have material, height, width, scalloping, placement (which is a massive subject). The thickness of the top material and where it's thicker/thinner. There are so many things that matter more.

When I thought acoustics were all D18s or D28s, the back wood seemed to be the biggest factor. When I started recording professionally I realized the back really doesn't matter and, what little influence it has is still smaller than a 2" change in mic placement.

[Chipotle]

Originally Posted by Bowie

what little influence it has is still smaller than a 2" change in mic placement.

Or a radically different sort of guitar. I wouldn't fret that much between a D28 and a D18, but when recording a song I do have to decide which one will fit the best: my HD28, custom luthier-built 00, Ibanez all-"mahogany" 000, carbon-fiber GX, nylon string.... I don't really hold much stock i having multiple guitars that are similar.