Reglue bridge on damaged Takamine G10

jpolglase · #1 07-06-2015, 02:03 AM

The bridge on my Takamine G10 came unglued and the laminate under the bridge was damaged/torn. I heated up and removed the bridge, cleaned off the bottom, and cleared off the damaged laminate under the bridge. I have someone bringing me some Titebond glue this week

So, is it best to fill in the laminate with something to even out the top before regluing? That would probably be best for appearance sake. Or, do I carefully trim more laminate off so that the bridge will glue down on the hardwood under the laminate? I have tried to plane down some African hardwood, but it is not possible to get it thin enough. I have also thought about using balsa, with the grain running longwise, perpendicular to the bridge, for strength. But, I am not sure how strong balsa would be under the bridge.

Other than this the guitar is fine.

Thank you for any help.

mirwa · #2 07-06-2015, 03:36 AM

If the gluing surface for the bridge is damaged, you need to rebuild / repair it first

This can be done by cleaning and grafting a piece of wood in, I do not recommend doing it if you have never done it before

Steve

jpolglase · #3 07-06-2015, 04:19 AM

I see what you are saying on both counts. Unfortunately for me, I am in a small country in Africa which does not have appropriate repair options. So, I am thinking that balsa is not the way to go?

BradHall · #4 07-06-2015, 01:32 PM

Balsa is a very soft wood. It would fill the gap, but has no holding strength. Do you know what a "Dutchman" is in woodworking terms? If all the damage is under the bridge footprint, I would cut and glue a piece ,near as possible in structure to the damaged portion of as you can find, and fill the tear out with that. Even a small piece of a hardwood isn't going to affect the tone on a laminate top. Google the process. A sharp razor knife, a straight edge and a sanding block should do it.

Frank Ford · #5 07-06-2015, 03:42 PM

This is a job for epoxy!

It will fill the gaps and stick the bridge on nicely. It's not the time for sophisticated "proper" rebuilding technique here, considering the instrument (modest, for sure) and where it is (obvious lack of resource and help).

Cleanup is the only issue - you do need to clean any squeeze-out by wiping with rags or paper towels right away, before it sets. Alcohol on the rag can be useful to dissolve uncured residue.

So, scrape glue residue from the bottom of the bridge, mix up a batch of two-part (NOT 5-minute) epoxy, fill the gaps and holes in the top, clamp the bridge lightly in place, wait overnight and the job will be done.

Oh, and don't try doing that kind of thing with Titebond alone - it has positively crummy gap-filling qualities, and is sure to fail if the gaps are big enough!

mirwa · #6 07-06-2015, 07:10 PM

I do not dis-agree with frank, but I am not a big fan of the use of epoxy on guitars

Steve

jpolglase · #7 07-07-2015, 07:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Frank Ford

This is a job for epoxy!

It will fill the gaps and stick the bridge on nicely. It's not the time for sophisticated "proper" rebuilding technique here, considering the instrument (modest, for sure) and where it is (obvious lack of resource and help).

Cleanup is the only issue - you do need to clean any squeeze-out by wiping with rags or paper towels right away, before it sets. Alcohol on the rag can be useful to dissolve uncured residue.

So, scrape glue residue from the bottom of the bridge, mix up a batch of two-part (NOT 5-minute) epoxy, fill the gaps and holes in the top, clamp the bridge lightly in place, wait overnight and the job will be done.

Oh, and don't try doing that kind of thing with Titebond alone - it has positively crummy gap-filling qualities, and is sure to fail if the gaps are big enough!

Ok, that is reassuring about the epoxy and I may try that if some other things do not come together. Mainly, I just need to fix this 20 year old G10 so I can start playing again. I was not sure if epoxy could fill that gap AND hold the bridge under tension.

On another note, a friend just brought by a thin piece of hardwood that, with some more scraping and sanding, will fill the gap nicely. If I can get that to fit, then I will try to use the Titebond and see if I can fix it "properly." If that does not work out, then I will go with the epoxy. I have used that glue many times, so am familiar with mixing up the resin and hardener.

Man, I had just bought Bryan Sutton's DVD instructional video and was all set to start learning Daley's Reel when I noticed my guitar was out of tune. Woa, the bridge is coming off! Hopefully between these two options I can get through to December. I will be in the USA and will pick up a new Taylor GS Mini or a Martin DM. I think they are both better than what I now have. Thanks for the assistance.

phavriluk · #8 07-07-2015, 10:03 AM

Mr. Ford has offered some good advice. If I was in the market for advice on this topic, I'd take his and not try to second-guess what he says. If you add a piece of wood, you still have the problem of how that wood bonds to the guitar top, which is the critical joint anyway. Might as well do the repair as Mr. Ford suggests. Epoxy is well-suited to join uneven surfaces. If you've never used epoxy, practice on some scrap wood before trying to reattach the bridge. The suggestion to avoid using five-minute epoxy was to avoid the glue setting before the bridge was completely clamped in place. If the glue sets up before the bridge is positioned, a new adventure awaits, this one really ugly.

Rodger Knox · #9 07-07-2015, 10:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jpolglase

Ok, that is reassuring about the epoxy and I may try that if some other things do not come together. Mainly, I just need to fix this 20 year old G10 so I can start playing again. I was not sure if epoxy could fill that gap AND hold the bridge under tension.

On another note, a friend just brought by a thin piece of hardwood that, with some more scraping and sanding, will fill the gap nicely. If I can get that to fit, then I will try to use the Titebond and see if I can fix it "properly." If that does not work out, then I will go with the epoxy. I have used that glue many times, so am familiar with mixing up the resin and hardener.

Forget the Titebond. If Frank Ford says to use epoxy, that IS the proper fix. It may not be considered proper by many repair people, but Mr. Ford understands the difference between fixing up an inexpensive guitar so that it can be played and restoring a vintage instrument. The "proper" repair can depend on the value of the instrument, and the capability of an individual to successfully execute the procedure.

jpolglase · #10 07-07-2015, 12:42 PM

Then epoxy it is. My apologies, I am new here and do not know who is who.

John Arnold · #11 07-07-2015, 01:01 PM

I do have a concern about losing the outer lamination of the top, because that is where the strength is. Without it, the top is much more likely to bend on the lower edge of the bridge, creating excessive belly and a tilting bridge. This is because the center lamination is cross-grain, and will bend very easily in that direction.
Unless you scarf the patch, you are not likely to increase the strength of the top enough to prevent this, and scarfing means extending the patch outside the bridge footprint at least 1/4".
A bridgeplate that extends above and below the bridge will help....particularly if the grain is oriented parallel with the strings, or at a 45 degree angle. A conventional bridgeplate where the grain is parallel with the length of the bridge is not the best for this type of damage.

pops · #12 07-08-2015, 07:46 AM

You might consider using epoxy to glue in your patch then glue your bridge on with titebond. That way you may be able to strengthen the top and reglue the bridge if it would come off again. What do you think Frank?

redir · #13 07-08-2015, 07:54 AM

I agree that filling in the missing ply would be the best thing to do but I also think just gluing the bridge down would be fine as well. I've seen this done and it works. If you do graft a piece in you can make it bigger then the actual bridge and make it look like it's intentional and it will give it some good strength. Otherwise if it's just a cheap guitar and you want it up and running fast then just epoxy the bridge in but first try and flatten the area real good too.

Frank Ford · #14 07-08-2015, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pops

You might consider using epoxy to glue in your patch then glue your bridge on with titebond. That way you may be able to strengthen the top and reglue the bridge if it would come off again. What do you think Frank?

That might be fine, but in this situation, I presume that "proper" clamping will be an issue, in addition to the mess under the bridge where the laminations are separated and damaged. Without good wood-to-wood contact and good clamping pressure, the bonding characteristics of most wood glues are seriously compromised.

Oh, and the reason for avoiding 5-minute epoxy are numerous. It's difficult to work with because of the risk of quick setting. The quick setting also prevents epoxy from seeping into all the damaged areas and forming a strong matrix there. Turns out that epoxy will penetrate cracks much better than most folks realize, and the longer time allows that. From a strictly structural viewpoint, the5-minute stuff is not well regarded. It smells bad, too.

Keep in mind we're talking about a guitar with very low (if any) potential cash value, and the goal is only to keep it going (maybe only for a few months) in a part of the world where there aren't a lot of options.

jpolglase · #15 07-08-2015, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redir

I agree that filling in the missing ply would be the best thing to do but I also think just gluing the bridge down would be fine as well. I've seen this done and it works. If you do graft a piece in you can make it bigger then the actual bridge and make it look like it's intentional and it will give it some good strength. Otherwise if it's just a cheap guitar and you want it up and running fast then just epoxy the bridge in but first try and flatten the area real good too.

I went out today and found some supplies. Found some five minute epoxy. "Araldite." (And Mr. Ford is right, that stuff does stink.) But they also make a longer setting, 90 minute epoxy. Maybe I can find some of that. I also got some bolts and wing nuts to make a caul for clamping. The salesman said that he had them for five years and I was his first customer! I have drilled out an old aluminum cabinet handle to make the caul. I drilled holes that match the end peg holes for the strings.

Question. The thin, hardwood piece I have has the grain running in the wrong direction. If I section the piece in to replace the missing laminate, I could then have the grain running parallel with the strings and perpendicular to the bridge. Would sectioning that piece in weaken the piece? I am think it is more important to have the grain running correctly than using a whole piece.