Rigs for Gigging with Multiple Acoustic Instruments

[Irish Pennant]

Originally Posted by joeguam

Why would you spend all that money for 3 volume pedals and a mixer if you were only going to play one instrument at a time? This is exactly why the ABY or ABC/Y pedals were invented - so you could mute all other channels and engage only one channel in one stomp. With your suggestion, you would always need two stomps, one to mute the current instrument, and the 2nd volume-up the next instrument.

Mixers are used to allow multiple signals to be played simultaneously into one PA. If you don't have this need, you should use a line switcher of some sort.

Maybe the OP should clarify whether or not the instruments will be simultaneously played?

As I said I already have a Zed 10fx and a volume pedal, buying two more volume pedals is no big deal.

A mixer is not just for playing multiple instrument simultaneously.

1) Three different instruments
2) There different equalization
3) Three different volume levels
4) Three different gain settings

-Three lines into a stomp box and one line out wont work
-One line into a stomp box and three lines out to three separate channels will work.
-Three lines to three separate channels will work. no stomp box.
-One line into a pedal that switches between three separate setting then one line out like what was suggested by jseth with the "Bose T1 Tone Generator"

Am I missing something?

[joeguam]

You know what, there are no rules to gear, use what works! A mixer can get the job done, so will a line switcher. It's great to have options.

[midwinter]

So I step away for a few days and look what happens.

Here's what I'm building—largely because I already had much of the gear for it:

guitar, mandolin, banjo, octave mandolin > a tuner each > a Baggs ParaDI each (for the EQing and notch filter) > one channel each in a Mackie mixer > out to FOH.

I had thought a ParaDI/tuner might work on the main out of a submix, but I worried that the EQ differences on the instruments would be too much to try to mess with all at once. The EQ and notching differences on my guitar vs my mandolin vs my banjo are significant.

While this setup may be more expensive others, I'm OK with that.

[midwinter]

Mike: This is almost exactly what I've done. I had originally thought that I could do it exactly the way you describe, but the pickups I use tend to be microphones of some sort (lyric, radius, JJB), and so I was concerned with muting the unplayed instruments—that's why I opted for a tuner pedal for each. Each pickup also requires pretty significantly different EQ and mid-notching (I'll be playing with monitors at pretty decent volumes so feedback is a real concern).

My goal with all my gear is to keep things as simple and bulletproof as possible, and my experience over the years has been that a Baggs ParaDI and a tuner pedal covers all my gigging needs. I had already doubled that up when I took up the mandolin. Why not keep it up now that I'm playing a lot of banjo, as well?

I really appreciate the advice, everyone. Thanks!

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

The simplest solution - a small mixer with EQ/volume adjustable for each channel-instrument, main out to a pedal tuner (with mute) and out from that to the main mixer - with a DI box if needed for long runs. No EQ needed on the DI box.
If you use an on-stage amp for personal monitor, you can come out of the mixer's monitor output to it so you can set the volume differently than the main output.

[joeguam]

Midwinter, you ever thought about commissioning someone like This1smyne or Analogman on TGP.net to build you a custom loop/switch/mixer pedal? I'm thinking that in your specific scenario, one pedal would have 4 inputs for each of your instruments and 4 stomp switches for you to select. Because you use the ParaDI for tone/EQ, you would be able to use the volume level to handle your mix & eliminate the need for a mixer and simplify your setup. The ParaDI gives you the balanced out to run straight to the FOH. You could also build in a tuner-out feed so you'll only need one tuner on your pedalboard.

So essentially, you'd have all four instruments go into one 4-switch custom pedal looper, then the loopers handle each signal loop per instrument (you could also customize effects in addition to your ParaDI), then the main out of the custom pedal to the FOH.

It's not a cheap option to commission a custom pedal looper build, but you mentioned you're okay with this. The main benefit here is that you setup at gigs would be simple: plug each instrument into one box, send one XLR to the FOH and your done....just stomp one pedal to select the instrument and the tuner stomp whenever you need it.

Just a thought.

[midwinter]

That's definitely worth considering. I'm interested in gigging with this particular rig for a bit, but I have to admit that I like to keep my gain stages to a minimum—and this rig gives me, what, three (DI, submix, FOH)? I wouldn't mind simplifying that in the future.

The thing I like about this setup, though, is that I can add stuff down the line (I have an octave mandolin coming) with just a tuner and DI.

Originally Posted by joeguam

Midwinter, you ever thought about commissioning someone like This1smyne or Analogman on TGP.net to build you a custom loop/switch/mixer pedal? I'm thinking that in your specific scenario, one pedal would have 4 inputs for each of your instruments and 4 stomp switches for you to select. Because you use the ParaDI for tone/EQ, you would be able to use the volume level to handle your mix & eliminate the need for a mixer and simplify your setup. The ParaDI gives you the balanced out to run straight to the FOH. You could also build in a tuner-out feed so you'll only need one tuner on your pedalboard.

So essentially, you'd have all four instruments go into one 4-switch custom pedal looper, then the loopers handle each signal loop per instrument (you could also customize effects in addition to your ParaDI), then the main out of the custom pedal to the FOH.

It's not a cheap option to commission a custom pedal looper build, but you mentioned you're okay with this. The main benefit here is that you setup at gigs would be simple: plug each instrument into one box, send one XLR to the FOH and your done....just stomp one pedal to select the instrument and the tuner stomp whenever you need it.

Just a thought.

[joeguam]

Originally Posted by midwinter

The thing I like about this setup, though, is that I can add stuff down the line (I have an octave mandolin coming) with just a tuner and DI.

Yup, that does make it simple to scale up. Were you thinking about adding effects into your chain at any point? If so, how were you thinking about handling it? Through the effect send/receive on the Mackie board?

[midwinter]

I want to say that the older I get, the less interest I have in effects of any kind on acoustic instruments, but that's not true. I've never been particularly interested in effects on acoustic stuff.

Maybe a little chorus. Maybe a little delay. Maybe a little BBE. I figure I can stick them on the effects loop on the Mackie.

Originally Posted by joeguam

Yup, that does make it simple to scale up. Were you thinking about adding effects into your chain at any point? If so, how were you thinking about handling it? Through the effect send/receive on the Mackie board?

[MikeBmusic]

OK, I can understand if you need some complex EQ and notching, the mixer EQ isn't going to do that for you. Using a separate tuner for each instrument just for the muting seems a real killer, though. I take it your mixer won;'t be real accessible when playing - usually there's a mute switch on each channel on Mackie mixers.
I assume you don't like the Radial PZ Pre, either - it has a mute switch as well as EQ and notching.

[midwinter]

I'll have to take a hard look at the Radial box. That could totally work. Like I said, I went this route largely because I already had a couple of Baggs DIs and tuners.

As for the mixer/muting: I just want to put the guitar in the stand, pick up the banjo, hit the stomp boxes, and play.

Originally Posted by MikeBmusic

OK, I can understand if you need some complex EQ and notching, the mixer EQ isn't going to do that for you. Using a separate tuner for each instrument just for the muting seems a real killer, though. I take it your mixer won;'t be real accessible when playing - usually there's a mute switch on each channel on Mackie mixers.
I assume you don't like the Radial PZ Pre, either - it has a mute switch as well as EQ and notching.

[lschwart]

Originally Posted by midwinter

I'll have to take a hard look at the Radial box. That could totally work. Like I said, I went this route largely because I already had a couple of Baggs DIs and tuners.

As for the mixer/muting: I just want to put the guitar in the stand, pick up the banjo, hit the stomp boxes, and play.

Well, one way to streamline this a bit would be to get 3 PZ-Deluxe boxes to replace the 3 PADI/Tuner set up. Or Baggs Venues. Or Fishman Platinum Pro's. All have the EQ you need and mute switches.

I use a Radial PZ-Pre to switch between two guitars, and that works perfectly (I'm able to use one EQ setting for both). But it sounds like you need 3 separate units.

Louis

[joeguam]

Midwinter, I understand your approach and the reason you've chose that route for your rig, I just believe there are much better/simpler/effective ways to go about what you're needing to do. I'm not sure how many gigs you've played in your life, nor how many you plan to play with your new rig, but my advice is not to cut corners the first time around....it will become much more expensive down the road.

I think there are quite of bit of us who will say that if you plan to play 100+ gigs a year, simplifying your rig setup/teardown is crucial. Sooner or later you'll be asking yourself how you can minimize the pieces of gear you need to haul in/out of a gig. Frankly, a tuner pedal for each instrument just to mute is not the way to go.

However, if you're only going to play 10 gigs in the year, and you're looking for something to just get you through them, your idea will work. Although, I think you mentioned you plan to gig quite a bit right?

There aren't many musicians who gig regularly with 4 instruments. I gig with 3 every time. The pros on tour that gig with multiple instruments have stage hands to swamp them out between songs. Even with stagehands, people like John Mayer still use custom looper/switch pedals to easily select the predetermined effects for each instrument. Heck, I think John Mayer has a separate switch built into his custom looper for each song!

So you can use your setup to achieve your desired rig, it will work. However, here are some thoughts you might want to consider changing. My hunch is that you will end up changing them after few gigs anyway, having to sell off a few pedals and buy others (I'm guilty as charged as well).

- You're duplicating your tuner 3 additional times which means you'll need 3 add'l power supply spots on your pedal board
- You have 4 unnecessary DI pedal functions when the cable runs are short to your nearby mixer. You could get much better EQ functionality without combination DI functions (like the Empress ParaEQ)
- Handling effects through your mackie aux sends will still require you to stomp on/off the effects appropriate to each instrument or song (a custom looper pedal would do this automatically for multiple pedals in one stomp)
- You have to carry a mixer & mixer stand in/out of gigs

I'm my experience, simplifying your stomps between songs is just as important as simplifying your rig setup/teardown. I'm sure you'll find yourself muting your current instrument but forgetting to unmute your next instrument (I'm guilty of this again), and you might miss a drop-in lead note or chord with your band.

Anyways, hope this info helps, either way, half the fun of gigging is buying/selling/trying different gear. Post a picture of your rig when you have it done so we can check it out. Laters.

[midwinter]

I play solo ~100+/- nights a year in my area and have done so for about the last 20-odd years in every place I've lived. I'd play more, but I have a job.

The majority of my solo gigs are with a much simpler guitar rig—guitar > tuner > DI > board. This new rig is for a group that I've joined where I'll be playing multiple instruments throughout the night—and where another guy in the group will be playing multiple instruments as well. Between the two of us, we'll take up 8-12 channels on any board, minimum (at least 2 acoustic guitars, 2 mandolins, 2 vox, at least 2 electrics, 2 basses, banjo). I play lefty, so we can't just swap instruments around.

This entire setup (including mixer) will get velcro'd to a pedal board and will largely be untouched (although I'll pull the bits for my acoustic out when I gig solo and that EQs will have to be fiddled with based on the room). The tuners are Boss, which can daisy chain power with one another. The Baggs DIs take phantom power off the board. I'll run this entire setup off of two power plugs—one for the mixer; one for the first tuner. And it's scalable.

I'll carry in instruments, my modest electric rig, and a single pedal board. I'll plug the board in, plug in the instruments, and run a single line out of it to FOH.

You keep mentioning effects, and I said this upthread: I don't use effects. At all. Any effects will come off the FOH, and that'll probably just be a little reverb.

Also, as I said, upthread, I use the Baggs DIs for preamp and EQ functions. Between the Lyric in my acoustic, the Radius on my mandolin, and the JJB in my banjo, they all require significantly different EQing. This rig only required me to buy another DI, tuner, and a cheap Mackie (yay for damaged packaging!). And I sometimes play shows where I actually do need a DI for a long run, and I like to bring my PADI in those situations:


View from the stage at sound check by midwinter_, on Flickr

Not that it matters, but I put the rig together this way after talking with a good friend who gigs ~250 nights a year with similar instrumentation and with whom I share a certain similarity in taste (i.e. we like our instruments to sound like acoustic instruments; we don't use loopers or effects).

You are correct that I will almost certainly make significant changes to this down the line. I've been playing for way too long not to accept that. Maybe I'll swap it all out for some other preamp/tuner/DI combo. Maybe I'll run with it this way for another 20 years, if it works and sounds good.

But I'm decidedly not much of a gear head and I have little tolerance for sitting around trying to sort out optimal signal chains. I want my gear to work and not require me to futz with it much at all.

Originally Posted by joeguam

Midwinter, I understand your approach and the reason you've chose that route for your rig, I just believe there are much better/simpler/effective ways to go about what you're needing to do. I'm not sure how many gigs you've played in your life, nor how many you plan to play with your new rig, but my advice is not to cut corners the first time around....it will become much more expensive down the road.

I think there are quite of bit of us who will say that if you plan to play 100+ gigs a year, simplifying your rig setup/teardown is crucial. Sooner or later you'll be asking yourself how you can minimize the pieces of gear you need to haul in/out of a gig. Frankly, a tuner pedal for each instrument just to mute is not the way to go.

However, if you're only going to play 10 gigs in the year, and you're looking for something to just get you through them, your idea will work. Although, I think you mentioned you plan to gig quite a bit right?

There aren't many musicians who gig regularly with 4 instruments. I gig with 3 every time. The pros on tour that gig with multiple instruments have stage hands to swamp them out between songs. Even with stagehands, people like John Mayer still use custom looper/switch pedals to easily select the predetermined effects for each instrument. Heck, I think John Mayer has a separate switch built into his custom looper for each song!

So you can use your setup to achieve your desired rig, it will work. However, here are some thoughts you might want to consider changing. My hunch is that you will end up changing them after few gigs anyway, having to sell off a few pedals and buy others (I'm guilty as charged as well).

- You're duplicating your tuner 3 additional times which means you'll need 3 add'l power supply spots on your pedal board
- You have 4 unnecessary DI pedal functions when the cable runs are short to your nearby mixer. You could get much better EQ functionality without combination DI functions (like the Empress ParaEQ)
- Handling effects through your mackie aux sends will still require you to stomp on/off the effects appropriate to each instrument or song (a custom looper pedal would do this automatically for multiple pedals in one stomp)
- You have to carry a mixer & mixer stand in/out of gigs

I'm my experience, simplifying your stomps between songs is just as important as simplifying your rig setup/teardown. I'm sure you'll find yourself muting your current instrument but forgetting to unmute your next instrument (I'm guilty of this again), and you might miss a drop-in lead note or chord with your band.

Anyways, hope this info helps, either way, half the fun of gigging is buying/selling/trying different gear. Post a picture of your rig when you have it done so we can check it out. Laters.

[The Bard Rocks]

I play the same instruments (and more, sometimes) and believe in KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I have no pickups (one can spend a lot of money for these if you have 10 instruments that you play during a single gig) and I don't want to be plugging and unplugging them all the time or or carry around a mixer big enough to have them all in at once.

Instead, I use a good mike, and I mount it on a gooseneck attached to my main vocal mike stand. When I switch to mandolin or banjo, I simply push the mike a few inches further way or scoot back a bit in my seat. And bring the mike closer when I am on a quieter instrument (guitar).

Cheap, lightweight, effective.

[MikeBmusic]

Originally Posted by The Bard Rocks

I play the same instruments (and more, sometimes) and believe in KISS (Keep It Simple, Stupid). I have no pickups (one can spend a lot of money for these if you have 10 instruments that you play during a single gig) and I don't want to be plugging and unplugging them all the time or or carry around a mixer big enough to have them all in at once.

Instead, I use a good mike, and I mount it on a gooseneck attached to my main vocal mike stand. When I switch to mandolin or banjo, I simply push the mike a few inches further way or scoot back a bit in my seat. And bring the mike closer when I am on a quieter instrument (guitar).

Cheap, lightweight, effective.

Good that works for you, but does not address tuning or EQ requirements. And at many gigs miking acoustic instruments is just NOT a practical method due to volume/feedback.