ID / date this poor old Epiphone (Blackstone?)

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From my ACE thread, had mentioned my beat up old refin Epi archtop, I think the seller said it was a Blackstone, no idea whether that's true or how old it might be. Anyone? Tried to get a shot of the unbound edge of the F hole showing it's one piece, not sure whether it's pressed or carved though. The cutaway is a mod, the "binding" around it is simply white plastic tape. I assume the bridge and tailpiece are replacements too. Forgive the poor refin and note stickers, not my doing.

[Steve DeRosa]

Definitely a post-1938 Blackstone, that someone converted into a quasi-Gibson L-4C (FYI the Blackstone was never issued as a cutaway, unlike the 17"/18" models); my thoughts based on your photos:

• Unquestionably a refin, but looks like it might have been done by a reasonably competent individual (possibly a carpenter or cabinet/furniture repairperson who bought this as a project guitar, and did the cutaway conversion as well) as the stain color/texture appears to be fairly uniform, with little if any damage to the binding - trust me, I've seen far worse...
• Tuning gears appear to be period-correct, probably original (I'd need to see the back of the headstock to be sure)...
• Neck may have been recontoured/narrowed - my '46 had neck binding, which is absent on yours...
• Bridge is period-correct, probably original; FYI during this time Epiphone used to stamp the underside of their bridges with the serial number, so if you're OK with loosening the strings and removing the bridge you can get a clue as to exactly when it was made...
• Pickguard is either a replacement or cut-down original, with the original screws (possibly the bracket as well) used to mount it to the body; FYI Epiphone's plastic trim items/binding did not generally oxidize and decompose as did those of many other makers (most notably Gretsch, D'Angelico, and to a somewhat lesser extent Gibson), so it may well be original to the guitar...
• Tailpiece is a post-2K replacement, identical to those used by Godin on their first-run 5th Avenue archtops; the correct tailpiece would not have been a Frequensator, but either a nickel unit similar to those on the current Century Series archtops or, if produced during WW II, one with a wooden (usually rosewood) or plastic crossbar to hold the strings...

BTW, first thing I'd do if it were mine is raise the bridge wheels until the saddle rested on them rather than the posts - it's not supposed to be slanted like that, and IME you're losing a lot of tone/volume (and risking damage to the original bridge) in the bargain...

Hope this helps...

[bholder]

Originally Posted by Steve DeRosa

Definitely a post-1938 Blackstone, that someone converted into a quasi-Gibson L-4C (FYI the Blackstone was never issued as a cutaway, unlike the 17"/18" models); my thoughts based on your photos:

• Unquestionably a refin, but looks like it might have been done by a reasonably competent individual (possibly a carpenter or cabinet/furniture repairperson who bought this as a project guitar, and did the cutaway conversion as well) as the stain color/texture appears to be fairly uniform, with little if any damage to the binding - trust me, I've seen far worse...
• Tuning gears appear to be period-correct, probably original (I'd need to see the back of the headstock to be sure)...
• Neck may have been recontoured/narrowed - my '46 had neck binding, which is absent on yours...
• Bridge is period-correct, probably original; FYI during this time Epiphone used to stamp the underside of their bridges with the serial number, so if you're OK with loosening the strings and removing the bridge you can get a clue as to exactly when it was made...
• Pickguard is either a replacement or cut-down original, with the original screws (possibly the bracket as well) used to mount it to the body; FYI Epiphone's plastic trim items/binding did not generally oxidize and decompose as did those of many other makers (most notably Gretsch, D'Angelico, and to a somewhat lesser extent Gibson), so it may well be original to the guitar...
• Tailpiece is a post-2K replacement, identical to those used by Godin on their first-run 5th Avenue archtops; the correct tailpiece would not have been a Frequensator, but either a nickel unit similar to those on the current Century Series archtops or, if produced during WW II, one with a wooden (usually rosewood) or plastic crossbar to hold the strings...

BTW, first thing I'd do if it were mine is raise the bridge wheels until the saddle rested on them rather than the posts - it's not supposed to be slanted like that, and IME you're losing a lot of tone/volume (and risking damage to the original bridge) in the bargain...

Hope this helps...

Thanks yes helps immensely! I've removed the bridge and put it back, trying to correct that slant, but it's been like that so long it seems to be stuck like that, will try again and see if there's anything under it.

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More pics:






I removed the bridge, it's already damaged, gouges missing from the underside. No serial number to be found on the underside of either part. And the post holes go all the way through - if I try to raise the bass side thumbwheel, the post goes right through and "stands" on the top of the guitar, lifting the bridge foot - that can't be right. Time for a new bridge (base, at least) I guess. I included the side of the neck shot because it does indeed look like some hackery was done there.

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I had a spare Hofner style bridge (with the slots and bits of fretwire as saddles) so I tossed that on there just to hear if it made a difference - it does, louder and clearer. Keeping the old one of course, but the new one's staying on for now.

[Epiphonist]

From what I can tell looking at the pics the guitar appears to be an Epiphone Blackstone from the 1945-47 period.
Heavily modded as noted. The bridge and other hardware are not original.

Felix

[bholder]

Originally Posted by Epiphonist

From what I can tell looking at the pics the guitar appears to be an Epiphone Blackstone from the 1945-47 period.
Heavily modded as noted. The bridge and other hardware are not original.

Felix

Thanks! I'm not sure it's worth trying to "restore" at this point since so much has been done to it, but other than one raised fret I need to fix, it's rather a player, it has become my "sitting at the computer" guitar.

[zombywoof]

While better photos of the tuners would help. If they are original (which is always a big if) to the guitar they would date it from 1947 to 1951.

[bholder]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

While better photos of the tuners would help. If they are original (which is always a big if) to the guitar they would date it from 1947 to 1951.

Thanks, I'll try to get better close ups of the tuners, need to break out the actual camera rather than the phone camera (which just won't focus reliably close enough). There is vertical printing on each tuner back cover though, reading top to bottom:
"S(tiny hole)N DELUXE". Looking at them from the front, I see no signs of mods around the holes, or around the tuner area on the back, so if they're not originals, they're exact matches on most specs.

[zombywoof]

Originally Posted by bholder

Thanks, I'll try to get better close ups of the tuners, need to break out the actual camera rather than the phone camera (which just won't focus reliably close enough). There is vertical printing on each tuner back cover though, reading top to bottom:
"S(tiny hole)N DELUXE". Looking at them from the front, I see no signs of mods around the holes, or around the tuner area on the back, so if they're not originals, they're exact matches on most specs.

Tuners are one of the easiest ways to help establish a date range for guitars. Those are your instrument are single line enclosed Kluson tuners. They read Kluson Deluxe with a hole between the "S" and the "N". There should be a "PAT APPLD" for stamp on the bottom of each tuner. These tuners are very common appearing on numerous guitars built from 1947 to around 1953.

[bholder]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

Tuners are one of the easiest ways to help establish a date range for guitars. Those are your instrument are single line enclosed Kluson tuners. They read Kluson Deluxe with a hole between the "S" and the "N". There should be a "PAT APPLD" for stamp on the bottom of each tuner. These tuners are very common appearing on numerous guitars built from 1947 to around 1953.

Right again, thanks, looking closer, I didn't realize the stamped printing wraps around the top of each tuner casing, but now I can clearly see the "KLU" part. Thanks again, everyone!

[MC5C]

According to the http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/models.html#GuitarAc its probably 1942 - 1945. Tuners are wrong, should have open back strip Klusons, bridge is wrong, should be a one piece foot, tailpiece should have a rosewood cross-bar (metal saving during wartime). Things that date it; the diamond inlay on the head from 1939 to 1946 (pearl prior to 1945, celluloid thereafter) and the six reversed parallelogram position markers are post 1942. Top should be carved spruce, back should be laminate pressed with maple veneer. The neck should have single celluloid binding.

Brian

[bholder]

Originally Posted by MC5C

According to the http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/models.html#GuitarAc its probably 1942 - 1945. Tuners are wrong, should have open back strip Klusons, bridge is wrong, should be a one piece foot, tailpiece should have a rosewood cross-bar (metal saving during wartime). Things that date it; the diamond inlay on the head from 1939 to 1946 (pearl prior to 1945, celluloid thereafter) and the six reversed parallelogram position markers are post 1942. Top should be carved spruce, back should be laminate pressed with maple veneer. The neck should have single celluloid binding.

Brian

Thanks! I'm fairly sure the headstock inlays are celluloid, so maybe the tuners imply it's a '45 or '46? Anyway, I don't really need to be exact, just wanted some idea.

[MC5C]

My information, which I confess is iffy, is that closed back three on a strip Klusons are post- 1947. My early guitars with klusons are all open back. But it would have been a very common change/upgrade.

Here is a great pic of a quite original 1945 Blackstone: http://wiedler.ch/nyepireg/regpics/52489_0.jpg

[Epiphonist]

Originally Posted by zombywoof

Tuners are one of the easiest ways to help establish a date range for guitars. Those are your instrument are single line enclosed Kluson tuners. They read Kluson Deluxe with a hole between the "S" and the "N". There should be a "PAT APPLD" for stamp on the bottom of each tuner. These tuners are very common appearing on numerous guitars built from 1947 to around 1953.

Those enclosed Kluson tuners are likely not original to this guitar - to my knowledge the pre-Gibson Epiphone company never used these.

This Blackstone is clearly from the 1945-47 period based on the headstock details: This type diamond inlay made of pearl substitute was only used in those years.

Felix