Open mic tone problem

[Jack Orion]

I've played a lot of open mics and I play in a similar style (although with thumbpick and nails) and I am a quiet player compared to a lot of the strummers that turn up.

I had a k&k in my Martin OM which sounded pretty good in ideal circumstances - and caused me all kinds of problems in not ideal circumstances! Feedback, muddiness, no 'punch'.

I think the k&k can sound good, but I think it is a bit fussy and, especially at open mics, a lot of soundpersons don't want fussy - they want quick and easy, and they've probably already dialled in the PA for their preferred sound and don't want to have to be fighting your guitar.

So... I went for the Anthem SL in my guitar and I've been much happier - I always get compliments on my tone and it works very well for me, all I have to worry about is playing!

But I understand that you might not want to put an undersaddle in your guitar and you might want to continue using the k&k for ideal situations - so why not just buy something like a fishman rare earth or an Lr baggs m1a to use for open mics rather than spending money on preamps?

A soundhole pickup is pretty feedback resistant, lots of soundpersons will know how to deal with signal and, if you go for the lr baggs, you can adjust the pole pieces to get the balance you want.

just a thought

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

I've played a lot of open mics and I play in a similar style (although with thumbpick and nails) and I am a quiet player compared to a lot of the strummers that turn up.



I had a k&k in my Martin OM which sounded pretty good in ideal circumstances - and caused me all kinds of problems in not ideal circumstances! Feedback, muddiness, no 'punch'.



I think the k&k can sound good, but I think it is a bit fussy and, especially at open mics, a lot of soundpersons don't want fussy - they want quick and easy, and they've probably already dialled in the PA for their preferred sound and don't want to have to be fighting your guitar.



So... I went for the Anthem SL in my guitar and I've been much happier - I always get compliments on my tone and it works very well for me, all I have to worry about is playing!



But I understand that you might not want to put an undersaddle in your guitar and you might want to continue using the k&k for ideal situations - so why not just buy something like a fishman rare earth or an Lr baggs m1a to use for open mics rather than spending money on preamps?



A soundhole pickup is pretty feedback resistant, lots of soundpersons will know how to deal with signal and, if you go for the lr baggs, you can adjust the pole pieces to get the balance you want.



just a thought

I think there's a lot of merit in using pickups with active preamps if you play open mics, or performances with other people's equipment. I liked my K&K with certain PA systems, and not with others. Unfortunately, while you're playing you have no ability to adjust. With ES2, Anthem, Trance, Aura, etc you can adjust on the fly. My only issue with some active pickup options is they can degrade the acoustic tone if too heavy and complicated.


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[guitaniac]

Here's a very interesting comparison of the K&K Pure Mini with several other pickups (Baggs Lyric, Fishman Matrix and iSolo mic). What's relevant here is that the Pure Mini definitely sounds quieter, despite the fact that each pickup is adjusted for the same level at the recorder. The demonstrator points out that this is because of the greater bassiness of the Pure Mini signal. And note that feedback isn't even a issue with these direct recordings. The mere bass-heaviness of the signal makes it seem quieter.

https://youtu.be/uCKNdt7Z8e0

Keeping the mids and using your preamp to roll off and/or notch down a lot of that feedback-prone bass (or letting the sound person roll off the bass) will go a long way in enabling the sound person to jack up the more audible part of your Pure Mini signal.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

I've played a lot of open mics and I play in a similar style (although with thumbpick and nails) and I am a quiet player compared to a lot of the strummers that turn up.

I had a k&k in my Martin OM which sounded pretty good in ideal circumstances - and caused me all kinds of problems in not ideal circumstances! Feedback, muddiness, no 'punch'.

I think the k&k can sound good, but I think it is a bit fussy and, especially at open mics, a lot of soundpersons don't want fussy - they want quick and easy, and they've probably already dialled in the PA for their preferred sound and don't want to have to be fighting your guitar.

So... I went for the Anthem SL in my guitar and I've been much happier - I always get compliments on my tone and it works very well for me, all I have to worry about is playing!

But I understand that you might not want to put an undersaddle in your guitar and you might want to continue using the k&k for ideal situations - so why not just buy something like a fishman rare earth or an Lr baggs m1a to use for open mics rather than spending money on preamps?

A soundhole pickup is pretty feedback resistant, lots of soundpersons will know how to deal with signal and, if you go for the lr baggs, you can adjust the pole pieces to get the balance you want.

just a thought

An active soundhole mag system would certainly be a less feedback prone and more hassle free pickup option (than a soundboard pickup) for a light-handed picker. That was definitely the case for a light-handed picker who I worked with (as an average idiot soundman) for two years. He would alternate between using a beautiful old frap-equipped Mossman dread that he'd picked up, and a soundhole mag-equipped old Epiphone which he'd inherited. I never did manage to make the frap-equipped guitar amplify very well, and it was much more feedback prone than the mag. (It had an overly thin and ambient in-the-cave sound. Perhaps the player's K&K preamp didn't suit it well. I recall a forum member commenting that the frap requires an unusually high input impedance.)

It should be noted that some of the active soundhole mag systems don't put out as strong of an output as some players are expecting. That's because those systems are powered by 3v lithium batteries, rather than the more typical 9v battery used to power other active systems.

[Jack Orion]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

It should be noted that some of the active soundhole mag systems don't put out as strong of an output as some players are expecting. That's because those systems are powered by 3v lithium batteries, rather than the more typical 9v battery used to power other active systems.

But I think you could crank the gain a bit more with a mag without risking the feedback like you do with a soundboard transducer

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Jack Orion

But I think you could crank the gain a bit more with a mag without risking the feedback like you do with a soundboard transducer

Yes, of course. The nature of a mag pickup allows for the use of more gain before feedback, and you can hopefully get that gain from your PA mixer. The lower output of these 3v systems does (unnecessarily) worry some players, however, because they are used to the hotter outputs of the 9v systems.

It should be said that raising the level of the signal is only one important function of an onboard or outboard preamp. The most important function, I'm told, is something called impedance buffering between the pickup and the mixer input which the signal is being sent to. I don't understand the science of it, but I can tell you that impedance buffering or "impedance matching" is necessary for good results when running the signal to a typical PA mixer input. It also prevents the loss of signal level and quality when run through a long instrument cable. Piezo pickups in particular tend to have a high impedance and need impedance buffering to function well. Even when using a passive crystal piezo pickup with a strong output (like the Pure Mini), its recommended that an outboard preamp be used, unless one is running directly to an amp input or other device with a high impedance input that's designed to handle passive pickups. Its also recommended that the cable between a passive pickup and an outboard preamp be kept to 10' or less to minimize signal loss and degradation between the guitar and outboard preamp.

Passive mag pickups have a lower impedance than passive piezo pickups, so impedance buffering isn't as critical with them. That's why its no big problem to have cheap mag pickups with 20' of cable soldered directly to them. As a practical matter, though, it helps greatly to have an outboard preamp on hand to deal with them as well.

Get yourself an L R Baggs PADI and you'll be ready for anything.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by A-Mac

Get yourself an L R Baggs PADI and you'll be ready for anything.

The OP has a PADI on the way.

It should be noted that the PADI has a minimum gain setting of +3db, so it doesn't have the necessary trim capability to handle an extremely hot active pickup system. (Yes, I've run into that problem.) My apologies for being the smarty pants who feels compelled to point out that the PADI isn't quite "ready for anything".

As an open mic host and average idiot soundman, I'm dealing with a crazy wide range of input signal levels from a variety of active and passive pickup systems. It really helps to use an outboard preamp(s) to keep the signal levels at the mixer somewhat comsistent. Unfortunately, the PADI isn't a good preamp for that particular job, because it can't handle extremely hot signals well (as stated above).

Originally Posted by guitaniac

The OP has a PADI on the way.

It should be noted that the PADI has a minimum gain setting of +3db, so it doesn't have the necessary trim capability to handle an extremely hot active pickup system. (Yes, I've run into that problem.) My apologies for being the smarty pants who feels compelled to point out that the PADI isn't quite "ready for anything".

As an open mic host and average idiot soundman, I'm dealing with a crazy wide range of input signal levels from a variety of active and passive pickup systems. It really helps to use an outboard preamp(s) to keep the signal levels at the mixer somewhat comsistent. Unfortunately, the PADI isn't a good preamp for that particular job, because it can't handle extremely hot signals well (as stated above).

I can only speak from experience, and that has been my experience. If yours is at variance from mine, so noted.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by A-Mac

I can only speak from experience, and that has been my experience. If yours is at variance from mine, so noted.

What I'm saying is that the PADI will be over-driven and not practically useful (as an EQ device and signal level control) with some active pickup systems which have a hot output and no volume control. It shouldn't be a problem with the OP's intended use.

[Puerto Player]

Nice "demo" of the different pickups available, but a good mic thrown in would have been nice to reference what the sound of the guitar is/should be? I have an iSolo, and many of the other systems out today, as well as many of the pre-amp modelers. If you've got a nice sounding guitar, getting THAT sound amplified is easier with the iSolo than any of the other pickups I've tried. There are some nice sounds in many of the modelers and pickups, but they all seem to be something different than the actual acoustic tone amplified.

[guitaniac]

Originally Posted by Puerto Player

Nice "demo" of the different pickups available, but a good mic thrown in would have been nice to reference what the sound of the guitar is/should be? I have an iSolo, and many of the other systems out today, as well as many of the pre-amp modelers. If you've got a nice sounding guitar, getting THAT sound amplified is easier with the iSolo than any of the other pickups I've tried. There are some nice sounds in many of the modelers and pickups, but they all seem to be something different than the actual acoustic tone amplified.

I thought the iSolo had too much of an in-the-well sound in this particular demo. That's just my personal taste, of course. I'm hearing the same problem with my own Lyric-equipped and MiniFlex2Mic-equipped guitars.


In any event, I posted the comparison demo link because of the OP's concern that his Pure Mini's amplified sound at the open mics has been muddy and weak. Even in this recorded demo comparison where the signal levels were adjusted for the same level, the Pure Mini signal is perceived as being relatively quieter than the other pickup signals because it has a greater low frequency content.

[Methos1979]

Once again, thanks to all that have chimed in. I hope you are all still watching this thread as I have more observations and questions. We did an open mic last night again and I didn't bother to do anything different because this place is the one that has the nicer equipment and generally doesn't have a problem. This is the place I did encounter feedback issues and I used the LuteHole sound hole cover and it worked well. It was still difficult to hear what the sound was like out there in the audience but the people did respond.

There was another thread somewhere where someone said he just brought his own acoustic amp and either played through that alone or when needed for a larger venue would mic or DI out it to the PA. I'm wondering if this is not something we should try because that would give us the sound/tone we are used to while providing a decent monitor on stage? There were a lot of full bands last night that brought electric guitar amps (and pedal boards) so extra set up was not an issue.

The Para DI will ship on Tuesday so I'll have that as well. The other issue all this has made me thing/worry about is the custom order guitar I have being built. I requested a K&K on this guitar since that is generally what I prefer but now I'm wondering if I shouldn't change that back to the UST option they offer (Baggs Element VTC) as it would appear from some opinions here that the UST systems are generally more open mic-friendly as opposed to the K&K? Thoughts on that from the few here that stated they run open mics is appreciated.

Last was the suggestion of just going soundhole pickup as they tend to be really good for open mics. I actually have a Baggs M80 so I could give that a try with my Santa Cruz. I couldn't do use that one with the custom on order because it has an offset soundhole anyway (Emerald X20). I suppose I could just take the K&K jack in the Santa Cruz off and tape it up inside and then put in the M80 and give that a go. That way I could always go back to the K&K as I needed and/or wanted.

I have options, I guess, but I'm really starting to warm to that whole using my own amp. Some of the open mics I play are small enough that my amp could be used to fill the whole room and not use the PA system all. I'll have to run that by the sound guy there to see if that would bother/offend him.

[guitaniac]

I've hosted open mics where acts bringing their own equipment (including drums) were quite welcome. If you have that situation, there should certainly be no problem with bringing your own amp and running a DI out to the house mixer if needed. You will certainly be able to hear your guitar better with the amp close at hand. It might make it more difficult to hear vocals, depending on your monitor situation.

The two venues where I'm hosting now are very concerned about the sound level. I've allowed amps, but I have to keep a tight lid on it (so to speak) since I don't have direct control over the amp's volume level. In one case, I had to tell the player to only bring his acoustic guitar in the future. His amp and his electric guitar are no longer welcome. (He turned his amp up mid set, and got very indignant when I turned it back down. I don't need the drama.)


If you're going to start bringing extra plug-in gear to an open mic, you may want to consider the ToneDexter preamp. If you can manage to create some good WaveMaps for it, you will get a better amplifying and less feedback-prone result from your K&K-equipped guitar. ToneDexter threads (complete with sample recordings, some with Pure Mini-equipped guitars) can be found on this forum. Here's a link to the company's website. You can find the ToneDexter manual (and learn how it operates) in the document section.

http://audiosprockets.com/


As for the M80 and UST options, they will indeed give you more gain before feedback. We have two accomplished fingerstylists in our area who make very good use of the M80. Albeit, they use fingerpicks. You've given yourself a harder row to hoe (so to speak) by playing with bare fingerpads. It can be done, however. I'm no great fingerstylist myself, but I play some accompaniments with bare fingerpads and I manage to hear myself in some pretty noisy settings. I'm using a Baggs Anthem SL-equipped guitar with plenty of EQ help from my Zoom A3 preamp. Here's a performance, complete with chatty crowd, with a bare-fingered accompaniment.

https://youtu.be/xinZUfUtHp0

[j.blay]

If the para DI is a LR Baggs, it wont have phantom power and you will still need a preamp for the K&K. I would suggest trying the K&K with the belt clip preamp run through the Para DI and experiment with the notch filters, gain, Phase, ect at home to get the best balance of volume/sound combo you can and try this out at your next open mic. Once you try this a few times, You'll be better educated to make a decision on the custom build pick up choice. If you can give the open mic host a better signal to start with, you may be happy with the K&K, preamp,LR Baggs signal chain. The Para DI/belt clip preamp combo is small enough and easy to bring along in a small shoulder bag. Don't forget to bring your own cables. Keep us posted. I'm in the process of creating my open mic set up as well. I'm using a JJB Prestige 330 and K&K Silver Bullet microphone internally stereo wired, and run into a DTAR Solstice blender and Equinox combo. I'm concerned I may now have more stuff than I care to tote along, and may just go back to just the JJB 330 and the LR Baggs Para DI. I will say that I love the sound and volume I'm now getting with my current set up. I am a bare finger picker as well.