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#1
07-27-2014, 02:46 PM
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Give me your thoughts
Hey everyone,
I’ve been reading an interesting book lately about how technology has been changing business models in various industries. One of the things that caught my attention was the concept of co-creation. It’s been very prevalent in the tech industries and I wont go into detail but basically it is when designers or creators of a product bring the core demographic into the design process. It got me thinking a bit about my business model. This seems like a great site that offers that kind of co-creative potential. I’m not sure yet how I’d like to integrate that into the way I already work but a good starting point would be to ask a few simple questions What do you guys want to see in hand made arch-top guitars? What trends are you tired of or what cool things have you seen that you’d like to see more of? Are you fans of natural or color finishes? Tell me what you love or what you don’t love in the world of hand-made arch top guitars. As a professional luthier building my name and business I want to know what buyers and enthusiasts think. There are no wrong answers. Any input that comes to mind is appreciated. It’s my personal belief (after building world class Arch-tops now for close to 8 years) that the instrument has a lot of room to grow. Both in it’s structural design and sonically. But that’s from my perspective as a luthier. Perhaps your opinions differ. Tell me about it. Hope everyone is well Thanks! Stuart Day Stuartdayguitars.com 
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#2
07-27-2014, 06:51 PM
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In order:
1] A "trickle-down" effect in terms of price-point availability; back in the day John D'Angelico priced his instruments competitively with Gibson and Epiphone and sold them on their tonal merits (as does Mark Campellone today). I'd like to see some models in the under-$3500 bracket that offer serious buyers of brand-name flattop guitars a chance to get acquainted with these wonderful instruments; something along the lines of a latter-day Gibson L-50 or Epiphone Zenith/Olympic wouldn't require a 50-line German Spruce top, AAA flamed-maple back, multi-ply binding, or even a transparent finish, so the economies of appointments could be redirected into quality of tone and construction (see also below)... 2] Having taken my earliest lessons from a then-teenage whiz kid named Jack Wilkins, I'm a traditionalist at heart so I'm not really a fan of some of the more radical visual aspects of contemporary design. One thing that I do like, however, is the violin-style aesthetic, TMK pioneered by Wilkanowski and revived by Benedetto et al. - not only does it provide for a clean, classy appearance IMO, but also allows for certain economies of construction in its spartan (no pun intended) appointments... 3] I'm a fan of well-done finishes color or natural, and while my Holy Grail electric is a '64 transition-logo hardtail Strat in Candy Apple Red I wouldn't paint a Stromberg 400 clone the same color (only Gretsch can pull that off successfully). "Classy" is my operative word here... 4a] What I love: there's a greater variety of instruments now, both factory- and luthier-made, than there has been in over 60 years; anyone with $500 to spend can pick up a Godin or Loar, learn their way around and, when the time is right, step up to that once-in-a-lifetime hand-carved piece (hopefully one of yours  ) - which leads me to...4b] What I hate: the fact that TMK you're largely alone in what you're doing, in terms of actively engaging the players/potential buyers in a mutual-education dialogue. Those of us who came up playing acoustic archtops are a dying breed: until recently nothing of consequence was produced at the beginner/intermediate level since the late-60's, so most guys under 50 haven't the faintest idea how to properly play one - "coax the velvet out" to use the old Big Band players' catchphrase - and unlike when I was a kid, the average music-store salesperson/neighborhood teacher is of absolutely no help. In the flattop acoustic world even the public-at-large knows the big names - Martin, Gibson, Guild, Taylor, and the Pac-Rim makers; once you're around a couple years you hear about - and possibly even play/own - Collings, Huss & Dalton, Breedlove, Santa Cruz, Lowden, Goodall; and high on nearly every serious player's bucket list are Olson, Ryan, Traugott, Somogyi, etc. My question here is, other than yourself who's speaking for you (the archtop makers) in educating the potential market - face it, you're preaching to the choir here; those players looking in the $4000+ bracket could easily afford to add a quality archtop to their stable - and very well might if they had the proper education/exposure. With the exception of a few high-end dealers - Elderly, Gruhn, MandoBros, and the like - there are virtually no opportunities to A/B even a beginner-quality archtop against a comparable flattop instrument; there's a great potential market out there - and as I said there's always going to be the step-up effect - but until the guitar world at-large gets on board with archtop acoustics in general (and quality stuff in particular) it's going to be an uphill battle for all of you/us... All the best, and God bless... 
Last edited by Steve DeRosa; 07-27-2014 at 06:57 PM.
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#3
07-28-2014, 12:04 AM
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Small is beautiful
I've recently bought my first archtop, and my first vintage guitar as well, a 1936 Gibson L-30. One of the things that set me off on the hunt for this one after playing a couple in stores was its' small size. It is 14" across the lower bout, essentially a parlor archtop. I don't play in public at all and this is very much a couch guitar for me to play quietly when everyone else in the house has gone to bed.
I suspect there may be a lot of people like me looking for a small, intimate guitar and even if I wanted a chinese factory made instrument I don't believe there are any this size. There seems to be a trend in flat tops towards 12 fret 00s and smaller and I'm sure there is a niche for a good archtop maker to produce something small and affordable like a modern day version of the L30 with some understated class in the finish and appointments. I've followed forum guitar projects on both the Larrivee and Santa Cruz forums and they have produced beautiful and very popular instruments and there is a Martin forum guitar that is a really classic design with over 100 made through a custom specification list via My Favorite Guitars. I don't think anyone has done a forum archtop and I'm sure something small along the lines of Dave Rawlings's Epiphone Olympia would be a popular starting point Chris
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#4
07-28-2014, 06:26 AM
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Steve DeRosa
Thanks so much for your comments. I appreciate you taking the time to give me such a thoughtful response.
In terms of price point, thats a really tricky area. And its even trickier to talk about from my perspective. but i'd like at least attempt to share our (or at least my) perspective on the issue because I think its important. I have never met a luthier who enjoys charging a lot of money for their instruments or alienating potential buyers from their market because of price. Most luthiers I know feel almost guilty charging people in the first place. But at some point we have to turn our labor of love into a business that pays the bills. So we learn quickly, usually by ripping our selves off in a few big repair jobs, that we have to charge a fair (to us) price. That is a hard pill to swallow for a lot of us. Trust me. None of us got into this for money. However… times have changed significantly since John's days in NY. Cost of living/inflation are much higher today. Plus there are numerous more overhead costs, fees, penalties, taxes, regulations (think- spraying nitrocellulose lacquer in the middle of NYC for example) Wood is more expensive and harder to source etc etc… Not to mention the industry is extremely competitive now where as John was really one of the only ones doing what he did at the time. When I worked for Ribbecke he would tell me stories about his first shop in San Francisco in the 70s. I got a real sense of what his life was like. I loved listening to the stories but everytime he would tell one there was one glaringly evident thing that stuck in my mind "I would NEVER be able to have a shop in San Francisco today". I just couldn't wrap my mind around a guitar maker (just starting out mind you) being able to afford rent, let alone materials, supplies and electric, in a city like SF today. So the reality is that without involving mass production, CNC, and outsourcing various procedures like lacquer work (all of which require significant working capital which most luthiers do not have), its very difficult to make a hand made arch-top guitar for less than… I'd say $5,000… and make enough money to pay your bills, keep building, and have any kind of decent quality of life. My standard base price for an arch-top is $6,500 with a custom cedar creek case which I feel is reasonable when I look at the years, sacrifices, and money I've given to get to where I am in terms of knowledge, skill and what have you. Now, none of that negates your point. I hear you loud and clear and have actually been in the process of trying to work out a design that I could sell as like a "student" or "introductory" model which would be very spartan in design, still retain my style, but allow me to sell at a lower price point (who knows… maybe that would be a good model to co-create on this forum). I'll never be able to get my prices down below a certain point. But its something I will work on and truly hope to be accessible to most people. Thanks for being honest about that and I hope my response didn't come across as argumentative. I am just hoping to shed some light on our side of the fence in regards to price point. I think its an important subject but like I said… its difficult from a business perspective to talk about it in a candid way. Your last point is interesting to me and I am wondering if you could elaborate on it. I get what you're saying about there being a lack of educational presence in regards to archtop guitar makers… but how do you think we can change that? What do you think needs to happen in order to shift the general publics perception of archtops? or maybe a better question is… what do you feel archtops bring to the table that people are missing out on? Again, thank you so much for your response. It really helps me understand my place and what I should be focusing on much better. All the best, Stuart Day
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#5
07-28-2014, 06:31 AM
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Shuffle
Hey there and thank you for taking the time to respond.
Absolutely small bodies guitars are in! I am about to start building my first 15.5" archtop and think its going to be a model that does very well. So yea, I'm totally on board with that idea. I love the way they feel and now with the a good understanding of wood and carves/bracing and pickups its possible to get a lot of tone and volume out of them. And as Steve DeRosa noted too… affordable. Maybe I will make a point of making my first 15.5" very basic and as affordable as possible. And see how it does. Tell me more about these "forum" guitars. I'm not sure what that means… I haven't been on these forums long. Thanks again Shuffle, Stuart Day
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#6
07-28-2014, 08:51 AM
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Thanks for your gracious reply - addressing some of your points:
A "forum guitar" is one for which the specifications are proposed by the members of a given site - in this case the AGF Archtop forum - certain common ground is reached, final specs set forth, and production begun. Probably the most infamous of these is the Martin CEO-5 which, in spite of its name, had its origins in the old Acoustic Guitar Magazine forum in the early-2K's; I won't get into the details of its occasionally venom-laden history - there is at least one active AGF member who can enumerate the specifics far better than I can; however, it not only combined an otherwise unavailable combination of features in a production model, but made them available at a price point that would readily allow purchase by even a serious hobbyist... With regard to your elaboration of a luthier's day-to-day I understand (and agree with) your key points; although I have never been in your shoes, I lived one block from Vinnie Fodera's first shop in Brooklyn about 30 years ago (I'm a closet bass player, BTW) and heard some of the same things you're saying. His response at the time - as Mike Pedulla's would be a couple years later - was to produce a very simply-appointed model (bolt-neck in this case), immediately recognizable as his work and produced to his standards of fit/finish, that would allow for economy of production as well as an on-hand inventory, and sell for around half the price of his full-on custom designs. I had a chance to play one of the prototypes, and while the tone was not to my taste (I'm more James Jamerson in this respect, and eventually settled on a Pedulla Series II P/J) there was no denying the quality - and it was in this spirit that I proposed the entry-level model in my initial post... Since both Chris and I agree that an Epi Olympic/Gibson L-50 would be well-received, why not use that as your proposed starting point for a "forum" design? A vintage Gibson-style black top/chocolate-brown back & sides would allow use of plain/cosmetically-inferior (but tonally acceptable) woods; a satin finish would create a vintage appearance and save the time/cost of hand polishing; simple 5-7-9 dot inlay and single body binding (or none at all, as with some early Gibson and entry-level Weber mandolins) would not only save money but further accentuate the '30s vibe; and a serviceable tweed HSC ($80-100 retail - less at your wholesale cost) would be a perfect visual complement while providing adequate protection - face it, anyone buying one of these won't be flinging it around like a Pac-Rim beater or taking it white-water rafting...  Finally, while it's possible to go to one of the high-end dealers and see/play most of the boutique flattop marques (I've spent many a Saturday afternoon at MandoBros that way), there are virtually no dealers on that level who provide similar variety in their archtop stock - if they have any at all; the jazzbox-specialty dealers aside - what I said before about preaching to the choir - too few people really understand the broad tonal palette available from a well-done archtop: the crisp cutting power of a Big Band veteran, the smooth "tone you could eat with a spoon" that represents the Holy Grail for chord soloists, the dark throatiness of acoustic blues, the articulation and subtle nuance that spawned the "classical archtop" school of the prewar years. Although I haven't pursued jazz actively since high school I've always tried to have at least one archtop on hand, if only as an alternative voice to my (and my wife's) flattop collection; sometimes "that" voice is just what's needed to fill out an arrangement - or form the basis for a totally new style/approach. The late Jimmy D'Aquisto was a strong - and very vocal - proponent of the all-purpose nature of the archtop guitar, and while his personal creations commanded stratospheric prices he also lent his knowledge and expertise to assist other companies (most notably Hagstrom and Fender) in developing more accessible instruments; while there are a number of luthiers capable of producing comparably high-level product, none are similarly proactive in its promotion. IMO there are a few ways in which this could be approached - similar consultation with mass manufacturers, a loosely-knit educational consortium of archtop luthiers, more agggressive promotion, placement of "stock" models with high-end dealers, just to name a few off the top of my head; we're undergoing a long-overdue revival at present - let's not let it die... Best wishes...
Last edited by Steve DeRosa; 07-28-2014 at 09:41 PM.
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#7
07-28-2014, 09:24 PM
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Stuart
Steve has given as good an explanation of a forum guitar as I can. I don't know the background to the Martin CEO-5 that he mentions but the story of the UMGF Martin is here and it is still selling well. The Larrivee forum guitars also seem to have been very successful and there have been 5 different versions that are detailed here. Although I don't have a link I believe the Santa Cruz 1929 series originated as a forum guitar as well. Many of the features of these guitars don't fit your circumstances since they revolve around getting a consensus for a viable number of custom guitars to be batch produced for a retailer by a factory builder. However the group discussion that went into agreeing a final set of specifications and the audience engagement that this generated are things that I think could work in your case. Steve has made some very good points about the benefits of a small no frills archtop. I especially like the idea of a vintage satin black top and brown stain back and sides to keep down production and material costs. That look is really attractive and my L-30 is black. I also think that the size niche of 14 or even 13.5 inches is important to make the instrument distinctively different. The other thing I would mention is versatility. My L30 came with a K and K pickup installed. For me that means I can plug into a Yamaha THR5a practice amp, put on some headphones and get the late night tone and volume I want without disturbing anyone. My guitar teacher, by contrast, is curious to use the same set up for a coffee house and a wedding gig, and it could go into a board as part a band. I think designing and building an acoustic archtop with a pickup installed would be another real selling point. My last idea is about exposure. If you can get something inexpensive enough to put out on a road trip for 6 months with selected players paying the shipping and putting up a youtube clip in exchange for a couple of weeks use of the instrument I think it could generate a buzz. I'm sure you'd have orders by the end of that for the road trip guitar and others. Telling the story behind the design and construction is another part of the exposure picture. My son does some of the videography for Fretboard Journal and these short pieces have all enabled interested viewers to get a sense of the personality and philosophy behind the instrument. http://www.fretboardjournal.com/vide...uild-mandolins http://www.fretboardjournal.com/vide...-romero-banjos Hope this all helps. It's a potentially fascinating project. Chris Last great idea - Ask Dave Rawlings if you can borrow his guitar to dis-assemble!!
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#8
07-28-2014, 10:30 PM
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Quote:
I'd beg to differ on going below 15" or so, Chris. I've played a number of quality "parlor" archtops over the last 40+ years - first-run Epiphones, lower-end Gibson L-Series, and a couple of Benedetto Andys - and I find their tone is best (and most politely) described as an acquired taste, lacking the low-mid punch that characterizes the larger instruments and contributes significantly to their aforementioned stylistic versatility; to their credit and in all fairness, some of the older ones make excellent single-string lead instruments for certain styles, with an almost mandola/octave mando quality. Frankly, if Bob Benedetto couldn't make it work in regular production I'd be extremely hesitant to revisit that path, especially with a product intended from the get-go to create brand-name recognition; in addition, while I agree wholeheartedly with the idea of a good-quality acoustic-oriented pickup, don't forget we're trying to get the price of admission as low as possible. That said, I'd sooner see the RPO models offered as strictly acoustic, in the interest of getting people on board - plenty of players still prefer to mike their instruments anyway - and offer the pickup as the sole available upcharge option...
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#9
07-28-2014, 11:27 PM
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I stand corrected
Steve
I somehow had it in my head that the Epiphone Olympic was 13.5 inches. Now that I've checked I find it is is 14.5 http://www.archtop.com/ac_35olympic.html My L30 also turns out to be 14.75 inches rather than the 14 I had thought so Stuart's plan for a 15.5 inch instrument seems closer than I realised. I'll certainly accept that the low end is not strong on my Gibson which is partly why I tweak the sound a bit with the Yamaha box. You're right ,the key thing is the optimum balance of sound and price and a pickup as an option is probably a neccessary compromise. Chris Last edited by shuffle; 07-29-2014 at 08:18 PM. Reason: typo
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#10
07-29-2014, 05:44 PM
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Hi Stuart,
I own since six carved top guitars from Kalamazoo and from several one-man shops, so I guess I am pretty much your target market! I appreciate the opportunity to contribute in any way to your work. I don't see a luthier like you as competing with factories. In fact setting your prices too low is probably the quickest path to failure. I expect prices starting at 1.5-2 times a high end factory guitar, with no upper limit. Nevertheless, you've got to make me want the guitar that much. Here's what makes me want it enough that I'm willing to part with my hard earned dollars: 1. Quality.High quality and personalization are the obvious things I get from a one-man shop compared to a factory, so I'll just mention the highlights. Quality includes workmanship and premium materials, but also knowledge of the provenance of the materials. Ideally I want to know where the woods came from and their age. Personalization includes scale length, fingerboard width, finish color, pickup type, and all the other known parameters. The other things I've mentioned don't get as much coverage so I'll elaborate. Connection to history. A serious builder should have knowledge of what has gone before. C'mon, you shouldn't be making archtops unless you have a pretty good idea of what Loar, later Gibson, D'Angelico, and D'Aquisto were trying to do. I definitely chose makers who can demonstrate this knowledge via apprenticeships, tools and tooling with appropriate history, repairs of old instruments, personal playing experience, etc. Design. This is a big deal for me, and IMO it under appreciated by the majority of builders. I actually sold a guitar from a very famous builder because after ten years of ownership I couldn't stand looking at it any more: the ratio of the size of the upper bout to the lower bout was just wrong! The old L-5's and Jimmy D'Aquisto's guitars for instance are absolutely timeless designs, and should be studied. Changing the ratio of the bouts or waist, or the curvatures, or the f-hole size or placement, or the headstock shape, etc. has a huge aesthetic impact. Please, I want a luthier to spend years worrying over these details. More than anything, I want my guitars to be BEAUTIFUL. Relationship. Nowadays getting a photographic history of the build should be a standard for luthiers. But really, I want a real relationship with someone who is building me a guitar. I want to be able to discuss the tone and response. I'd love to play guitar for my luthier, listen to them play, listen to their description of what they hear and what they listen for. I'd like to discuss the best guitar qualities for various styles of playing. Importantly, I want honest, expert advice on what I need. I find that too many customers specify every little detail of the guitar and they leave the luthier with few degrees of freedom. I want the luthier to “get” my playing, and then to make a guitar that they love themselves and are proud of. I'm looking forward to your views on my semi-rant!
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#11
07-29-2014, 08:23 PM
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Hello Stuart,
A couple house cleaning items then I'll get to the Archtop arena. First .. the Martin CEO-5. It was NOT designed by CFM IV. It was designed by his ancestor and Ditson and the specifications of the guitar were all suggested by the members of the Acoustic Guitar Magazine Form. That forum was the largest on the I ngternet at that time. I won't go into the details.. however the basics are :CFM I V came on and started a thread to get input for the CEO-5 ( collosal ego opus five) He did it as if it was corporate directive replete with deadline. Many contributed to the cause. However, one poster suggested absolutely every detail of the guitar minus the pearl and gag me gold frets, tuners and label. All agreed it was the single most representative model. Ever specification included the reason for the inclusion down to the smallest detail, minus the gag me gold frets , tuners and label. SCFM IV never thanked anyone and claimed the design was his, it was not. I copied many of the posts from The AGMF and from The Unofficial Martin Guitar Forum. Many posters on both forums ( fori ?) suggested the guitar be called the "El Jefe" in honor of the designer. A huge discussion ensued and apparently Martin's henchmen ( if not Martin himself) contacted both forum owners and mysteriously the entire thread disappeared from both sites. CFM IV did NOT design the CEO-5. That is a fact. Did I mention CFM IV NEVER thanked anyone. NEVER. Archtops. Look at Eastman as a model for one kind of company. They tried to get Benedetto onboard and were not successful. I was told by Eastman Benedetto said.. get the book and the video. They did and now they are in business. I think the Eastman's are ok but not a great , but good, value and inconsistent and made by a group of people who have no guitar culture and the results are obvious. I am not a fan of the Benedetto/Eastman shape, the tailpiece, the pickguards.. add to that hideous "violin" finishes that look like failed Jr High shop projects. My personal likes are a bit narrow and traditional. First... and foremost is tone and playability. Second, and close to first.. aesthetics. Third is value.... not price, value. What I do not like.. Billboards advertising the maker on the headstock.. keep it simple. Keep the headstock design simple. No gold.. cheap and cheezy. Garish wood. Garish inlays Garish binding Garish finishes Cutesy affectations such as soundports. Strap buttons on the neck heel (never) Endorsed guitars or signature guitars.. a deterrent to purchase Any design "affectation" that does not translate to tone and playability Outlandish claims such as magic wood or magic finishes. No shortened or stretched scale lengths Modest frets.. no jumbos or ultra talls or ..or gold ? No bear claw No bizarre "f" hole designs. No weird finishes.. of any kind. No gender impaired jesters crawling up and down the fingerboard.. no birds or fetishes. No cutaway What I prefer: Built as an acoustic guitar even if equipped with a fingerboard floater 1 3/4 nut width At least a 2 1/4 saddle string spacing, 2 5/16ths preferred.. I fingerpick. Ebony fingerboards Ebony bridges Spruce tops.. not necessary to have Slutz or Garapathian or whatever the flavor of the day is Maple backs and sides.. see previous line Maple or mahogany necks Full body, no cutaway... There are three basics to any product Design Materials Workmanship Design.. Traditional and functional.. not an egotistic arrogant statement Materials.. simple quality.. no hype necessary Workmanship...the best possible given the handmade nature of the product... equate this with the best violins.. rarely perfect, always classy That's it CLASS... not "style" but CLASS http://www.the1923project.com/ This would be my current favorite.. has everything I want except.. Not Made in the USA and the price is bit over the top given that it is European and there is no break for the Euro or import duty. This is THE pinnacle of archtop guitars now.. and, when the original was made. One other item of importance.. If you take and order.. Do what you say you are going to do, when you say you will do it for the price quoted. Take a modest deposit, give progress reports, ask for a second installment.. give progress reports ask for a third installment, give progress reports.. ask for final payment.. Ship on time. Give the buyer 72 hours to approve.. offer 100% refund if not satisfied.. This also implies.. Never build anything you can't sell for the same price, or more, to another customer. BTW I have ordered several custom instruments over the years.. Only twice did the maker do any of the above.... only twice. Only two makers met their deadline Only two made what they said they were going to make when they said they were going to make it. And those were the only two instruments worthy of the expense. Charles Vega of Baltimore, Flamenco Guitar Clement Breton, Accordeon maker, Quebec. At least a dozen other times.. disastrous. To add, I never called any of them until well after the deadline. It cost me thousands not to own substandard instruments. More on archtops later.. Dog ate some NEOSPORIN.. on the phone with doggie poison control. PS I make "world class" art in a specific field jjhildrethstudios.com Last edited by bohemian; 07-29-2014 at 10:16 PM.
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#12
07-30-2014, 06:44 AM
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Bohemian,
Sounds like you enjoy the heyday of archtops and want them to stay that way. My guess is your views are representative of most archtop enthusiasts. The next few I release are going to definitely be more in this vein of instruments. Clean, conservative and player focused. Thanks so much for the input. it's very helpful Cheers
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#13
07-30-2014, 07:10 AM
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Archtop Guy,
Thank you for the great feedback. I feel basically the same way about most everything you mentioned. I have always felt lineage is crucial, a strong foundation in traditional woodworking and lutherie techniques, knowledge is paramount. I wont go on about myself here, but you can take a visit to my website and read my bio and you will find that I've gone to great lengths to fulfill thee things in my career. Design is absolutely crucial but something a little less tangible and harder to pin down as someone's history. a persons' sense of design is almost innate. Now… a problem I have seen a lot in my teaching is that people with a good natural sense of design or artistic flare often times will just rely on their natural talent. To me, design is no different than using a chisel or playing… you may have natural talent but you need to reinforce and nurture that talent by studying. Thats the difference between someone who has a natural eye and someone who has refined and perfected their design sense. Quality to me has always been a given. At the level of the market I am operating in and hope to one day rise to I just don't think its acceptable to not be a fantastic craftsman. At the end of the day I really just have always wanted my work to speak for itself. Unfortunately I've been in this business long enough to learn that that is just not the way it works. I want the quality, design, the history and lineage, worth and value all are just apparent in the instruments. I guess as a luthier that is my highest hope from the perspective of business and image. Until I get my name out there though I think its difficult to achieve that. So much of the guitar is psychological and therefore subjective. And a lot of value is perceived only. Thats why I thought it would be nice to hear the subjective opinions of you guys, who really don't know me, who have nothing tied to me and can just give me honest, candid thoughts. And it has been great! Its really helped inform me of how others see the instruments. I think a person studying archtops from the perspective and playing, buying, collecting, and appreciating, has a very different, albeit overlapping, point of view than someone studying archtops from the perspective of designing, building, selling, repairing etc… As a builder/designer we want to push boundaries, we want to create new things, we want to improve on old designs, our knowledge pushes us to do things differently than some of our predecessors maybe. But its important for me to remain grounded and close to your perspective because players might not share all those priorities. Maybe in the grand scheme of my life I'm building for me… but in the day to day practical scheme I'm not, I'm building for all of you. And its always been very important for me personally to remember that. So this has been a very informative discussion and I really appreciate the time you took to give me the feedback.
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#14
07-30-2014, 07:19 AM
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Steve Derosa and Chris,
Thanks for all your thoughts and your time. I really appreciate it. I love the idea of a smaller bodied archtop that is an homage to the L-50. I think the black satin top with the tobacco kind of burst side and backs is a killer look. And I already have images floating around in my head about how to put it all together. So, I'm feeling inspired by all your ideas. I also really like the idea of a road trip guitar. I've seen some flattop makers do that but I don't know of any archtops that have gone on a trip like that and I think it would be really cool. As far as price point, that of course is a much more complicated issue. Cost is really only one aspect of it. But I do hear you guys and I will give that a lot of thought and see if there is some way, that makes sense not only in terms of cost, but also in terms of my business, my reputation etc… where I can introduce a model that starts a lower price than my current base price. like I said before maybe a "student" or "introductory" instrument. But there is a lot to that decision that I need to think about. I'm not really interested in getting into a higher volume production side of the business. I have seen too many successful high end makers try to go down that road and fail because the market just wasn't willing to accept them as competitors to the more known production companies. So, one of my biggest concerns in introducing a model under the $5,000 price point is getting myself in that same rabbit hole. But like I said, I will give it a lot of thought. Thank you guys so much for your thoughts and feedback. Very helpful. If I end up building the guitar you have been talking about I'll be sure to key you both in on a build thread here.
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#15
07-30-2014, 08:48 AM
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Quote:
More on design and pushing the envelope... Like you said study and time is required! But there is lots to draw upon... We stand on the shoulders of giants. I think that many young makers, in the need to make a statement, make too many changes to the established ways and designs. I understand the urge, but don't forget how fundamentally conservative lutherie is! The standard of Stradavarius hasn't changed in 300 years. Finally, regarding getting your name out there... you need a few patrons, like Rudy Pensa, Joe Vinikow, John Stewart. The road trip guitar is a good idea but only if you already have the patrons, customers, working musicians, and people who will give you honest feedback.
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