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  #1  
Old 03-17-2014, 01:03 AM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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Default A breakthrough in the tonewood debate?

I don't know why, but before I even got really interested in the CF market I was a "junkie" of the notion that solid tonewoods get better with age. I researched the idea (and would love to see commentary by owners, luthiers, or any interested like me to chat about this) for many years and have also researched the heck out of how to get an acoustic to sound great live.

I've played some amazing older guitars and there is just something about it that is super cool to have a vintage in your lap. However, I've often had some older guitars that didn't respond to my ear, or better put, didn't relay that notion to me. That got me thinking, is it really true? Do tonewoods sound better with age?

I would ultimately say yes, but I would say it with a bit of restraint. What do I mean by that? Well- let's say that you bought a NEW solid woods guitar back in 1978 and that you were the original owner AND played it regularly for the last 36 years. Here is a profound question to challenge those who think that age really affects a guitar a whole lot more in the tone department than a fresh set of strings would, or the fingerstips and approach of the artist that plays it;

How do you really know what your guitar sounded like 36 years ago?

For those of you who have kids, it's much more shocking to your friends and family members that have not seen them in a year than it is to you about "how much they have grown". You have seen them every day over the last year and the transition really isn't as noticeable to you. Sure, you know they have grown in stature and intellect but it just doesn't hit you like it does your family members that haven't seen your kids since last Easter. To them, it's shocking sometimes.

Wouldn't that be true of your guitar too? I mean, if you play the thing daily over the course of 36 years wouldn't it be fair to ask how much of the love affair with that guitar's particular tonal qualities is merely psychological? What brings me to write so much and so late is that one of the biggest "cons" I hear wood purists speak about when addressing their dislike of CF guitars is that THEIR guitars will sound better with age. CF is "you get what you get" right out of the case and it will never change. I just listened to some sound samples tonight that have me just perplexed over the quality of tone that these modern CF marvels can generate, and those purists should really take note!

Al Petteway just bought a Rainsong Shorty and did a relatively controlled experiment between 5 guitars that are similar in size. He did the same fingerstyle piece and kept all guitars with the same strings, and EQs flat. The results are amazing. Steve (Doubleneck) here on this forum did a similar experiment between a Rainsong Parlor and a Taylor GS mini.

One of the 5 guitars is a 1931 Martin 0-28 (Brazilian/ Adirondack). That guitar is 83 years old this year and I'm having a tough time believing how great the Rainsongs sound (one Shorty and one custom OM with hybrid b/s and top) when comparing them to this Martin!

Here is the link to the recordings Al posted on Soundcloud. 5 different guitars; 3 wood variety and 2 CF guitars. Can you spot the Shorty? The Rainsong OM? The Martin? The Circa 000? The Tippen Cresendo? (by the way, my favorite is the Circa)

https://soundcloud.com/al-petteway

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  #2  
Old 03-17-2014, 07:33 AM
Doubleneck Doubleneck is offline
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I think that comparison should open up some eyes cause the Shorty does hold its own against very good wood competition. Part of the attraction of wood is the aging process, that gives the hope of a better guitar as time goes on. Is that myth? I have seen my GS Mini improve fairly dramatically in the bass in a couple of weeks. There is no doubt this occurred in my mind cause it happened so rapidly. Longer term aging improvement I think can happen. But CF gets you there right now. I like them both. Right now I love the Mini not sure it matters what it's made of. Just a great instrument.
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Old 03-17-2014, 10:03 AM
Earl49 Earl49 is offline
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In that respect, carbon fiber guitars are a lot like laminated guitars. The tone you get today is the tone it will have always - no "aging in" or "playing in" with laminated woods, versus solid woods. If you like the tone now, you should also like it in 20 years. CF versus wood is a personal taste thing and traditional values issue.

There is a lot of "this ain't the way ____ would have done it". Think Bill Monroe and bluegrass, for example. I feel that way about front load washing machines, instead preferring the old standby top loaders. It ain't broke, so why fix it?

I still think that the Rainsong WS-1000 is the best guitar we own, and if the house caught fire, that is the one that I would grab on the way out the door. The last remaining Martin, the Taylors, the Seagulls and the others would have to fend for themselves.
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Old 03-17-2014, 10:50 AM
tdq tdq is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post

Here is the link to the recordings Al posted on Soundcloud. 5 different guitars; 3 wood variety and 2 CF guitars. Can you spot the Shorty? The Rainsong OM? The Martin? The Circa 000? The Tippen Cresendo? (by the way, my favorite is the Circa)

https://soundcloud.com/al-petteway
Where do I find out which is which?
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Old 03-17-2014, 11:04 AM
jgillard jgillard is offline
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You can find the key here: http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...6&postcount=17
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Old 03-17-2014, 03:57 PM
kramster kramster is offline
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I'm sure after 3-4000 yrs CF guitars might open up a wee....though not sure yet...I'll get back to you when I am getting one close to that old...stay tuned.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:05 PM
HHP HHP is offline
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I doubt many people buy wood guitars based on how they think they will sound in 20-30 years. They buy them based on how they sound today. Likewise, those people don't buy CF for the same reason. Any positive changes the wood guitar may experience is just a bonus.

Looks probably count more between them than any aging or lack of it.
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Old 03-17-2014, 04:10 PM
Monk of Funk Monk of Funk is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post
I don't know why, but before I even got really interested in the CF market I was a "junkie" of the notion that solid tonewoods get better with age. I researched the idea (and would love to see commentary by owners, luthiers, or any interested like me to chat about this) for many years and have also researched the heck out of how to get an acoustic to sound great live.

I've played some amazing older guitars and there is just something about it that is super cool to have a vintage in your lap. However, I've often had some older guitars that didn't respond to my ear, or better put, didn't relay that notion to me. That got me thinking, is it really true? Do tonewoods sound better with age?

I would ultimately say yes, but I would say it with a bit of restraint. What do I mean by that? Well- let's say that you bought a NEW solid woods guitar back in 1978 and that you were the original owner AND played it regularly for the last 36 years. Here is a profound question to challenge those who think that age really affects a guitar a whole lot more in the tone department than a fresh set of strings would, or the fingerstips and approach of the artist that plays it;

How do you really know what your guitar sounded like 36 years ago?

For those of you who have kids, it's much more shocking to your friends and family members that have not seen them in a year than it is to you about "how much they have grown". You have seen them every day over the last year and the transition really isn't as noticeable to you. Sure, you know they have grown in stature and intellect but it just doesn't hit you like it does your family members that haven't seen your kids since last Easter. To them, it's shocking sometimes.

Wouldn't that be true of your guitar too? I mean, if you play the thing daily over the course of 36 years wouldn't it be fair to ask how much of the love affair with that guitar's particular tonal qualities is merely psychological? What brings me to write so much and so late is that one of the biggest "cons" I hear wood purists speak about when addressing their dislike of CF guitars is that THEIR guitars will sound better with age. CF is "you get what you get" right out of the case and it will never change. I just listened to some sound samples tonight that have me just perplexed over the quality of tone that these modern CF marvels can generate, and those purists should really take note!

Al Petteway just bought a Rainsong Shorty and did a relatively controlled experiment between 5 guitars that are similar in size. He did the same fingerstyle piece and kept all guitars with the same strings, and EQs flat. The results are amazing. Steve (Doubleneck) here on this forum did a similar experiment between a Rainsong Parlor and a Taylor GS mini.

One of the 5 guitars is a 1931 Martin 0-28 (Brazilian/ Adirondack). That guitar is 83 years old this year and I'm having a tough time believing how great the Rainsongs sound (one Shorty and one custom OM with hybrid b/s and top) when comparing them to this Martin!

Here is the link to the recordings Al posted on Soundcloud. 5 different guitars; 3 wood variety and 2 CF guitars. Can you spot the Shorty? The Rainsong OM? The Martin? The Circa 000? The Tippen Cresendo? (by the way, my favorite is the Circa)

https://soundcloud.com/al-petteway

I don't see why consistent tone would ever be considered a negative attribute for a guitar. If it sounds good now, and it will sound good for a long time, then who cares?

But there is something beautiful about the tone of a guitar growing with you as you play it, and growing according to how you play it.

But I'm not bothered that much about these sorts of things. If I like the tone of my guitar, and how it plays, then that's good enough for me.

What it's gonna sound like in 30 years, will only matter to me in 30 years.
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Old 04-09-2014, 03:48 AM
tomana tomana is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by steelvibe View Post
How do you really know what your guitar sounded like 36 years ago?
Perfect
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Old 04-15-2014, 05:06 PM
Monk of Funk Monk of Funk is offline
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You could say that about anything that takes a long time to age. You don't have to A/B it against your own guitar. It's a quality you recognize about older things. If you play a large variety of maple guitars, and then a large variety of brazilian rosewood ones, then you will discover the character of maple wood, or rosewood.

There is also a character of old guitar.

This argument is like saying that it's impossible to know what a tonewood sounds like, because you can't replace the tonewood in your guitar with a different one.

If you aged wine for 40 years or something, is it necessary that you could never tell the difference 40 years later?

Do you not recognize that a person looks older after 30 years, even though you see them every day?

It's not even impossible not to hear the difference of your own guitar. I've never done it, but you'd have to assume that people have.

But at the very least, all you have to do, is have tried a number of older guitars.

The physical attributes of wood are such as well, that it makes sense that the tone would change over time. Wood wears fairly easily. It's pretty soft.

Guitars age, it's just that way. This is recognize as happening in all wood instruments. If it was metal, then that might be different. But wood is a very dynamic and material easily influenced by its environment.

How big is the difference? Idk. In what way will it be different? idk.

But I also don't know how one year of aging differently for some wine will taste.

This is the only place I've ever come across where there were people that were even questioning whether or not guitars age. Idk, where that idea came from.

"How can you remember what your guitar sounded like?" Is not an argument against it. asking how people figured it out, is not evidence that what they figured out is false.

How did they build the pyramids? Idk, but they're up there.
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Old 04-16-2014, 07:30 PM
Malty Malty is offline
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Determining that a certain combination of sound waves is superior to others is simply a man made construct.

It might be interesting to know the conversation of guitarists in 17th Century Europe, long before Brazilian rosewood was used in guitars.

It might be interesting to know the conversations of guitarists in 24th Century Europe, long after wood ceased to be used in guitars.
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Old 04-16-2014, 08:16 PM
Mtn Man Mtn Man is offline
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We were at a fiddlers convention recently and got a chance to meet Larry Dumas and play a few of his guitars. He had one dread that was really unique looking, and when we played it...whoa momma! The rhythm sound was amazing. This thing would eat most D-28's alive on rhythm. I asked him what the wood was, and he said Locust back and sides and Cedar top. Locust! He said Locust is one of his favorite woods to build with because it's dense and heavy and sounds a lot like Rosewood. If I hadn't heard it for myself I wouldn't have believed it. Locust!
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Old 04-18-2014, 12:20 AM
steelvibe steelvibe is offline
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I love wood guitars and do believe that they sound better with age. My Breedlove already sounds better 6.5 years after it was manufactured- I remember what it sounded like the day I bought it, but it was 6.5 years ago, not 36. However, I did no sound recordings of the instrument then to compare it to the tone it has today- some of that could be wishful thinking? But, I don't think so- tonewoods do sound better with age.

The thesis of what I wrote was that the 83 year old Martin sounded amazing, but the Rainsong Shorty sounded equally amazing. I was just trying to demonstrate that much of the arguments that I hear around tonewoods are just kinda blown out of proportion when using the "aging" argument. The reason I even wrote it was because I went and played a beautiful Taylor 522M at a local mom and pop and loved it. The sales guy was pressuring me a bit and started talking about financing with them. We were talking about making a nearly $3000 purchase. I had mentioned that due to the climate where I live, I was thinking of getting a CF guitar. The first thing he did was downplay the quality of CF because it will not get that nice "aged" tone that the Taylor will. He is absolutely right, but, fast forward to Al Petteway's soundbytes on Soundcloud.

The Shorty sounds amazing to my ears. If I wasn't told that a carbon fiber guitar was in the samples, I would probably not have guessed. Even Al said he is very impressed with his Shorty and it holds its own against all the guitars tested.
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