A Curious Warning Re: Composite Guitars

[Oakland]

I was talking to Doug McMaster, a brilliant slack key player on Kauai. He was telling me how he had gone through 17 guitars in 7 years of playing daily outdoor sunset concerts. We got to talking about composite guitars as an alternative and he mentioned that he had tried a Rainsong, but it got so hot in the sun he couldn't hold on to it. (I'm sure the same is true for any black composite guitar.) He got in touch with Rainsong and they told him getting the guitar that hot could soften the glue used for the bridge too. So, I guess you can take your composite guitar to the beach -- but only at night -- or if it has its own beach umbrella.

[jalbert]

From a former CA dealer, I've heard the same thing--that at about 175 degrees F the glue starts to soften. I certainly hope Doug's guitar doesn't get that hot, no wonder he couldn't hold on to it! I wonder if Rainsong offers a white finish?

[patticake]

doesn't glue on wood guitars also soften in higher temperatures?

[EverythingMusic]

Originally Posted by patticake

doesn't glue on wood guitars also soften in higher temperatures?

Yes, but wood doesn't absorb and conduct heat as quickly as the composite, or so the theory goes. Also the generally lighter finish of a wood guitar would help to reflect some of that heat.

I'd say that when outside, always keep your guitar in the shade if you can.

[tbeltrans]

It seems to me that if a wood guitar got anywhere near that hot, there would be other damage before the glue that holds the bridge were to soften. Besides that, is it really that difficult to reinstall the bridge if that does happen? To me, the advantage of carbon fiber instruments with regard to "toughness" would be that if you treat the instruments with reasonable care, they last indefinitely and without problems. I would never expose my wood guitars to direct sunlight and for long enough to generate that kind of heat. I would want to be sitting out of direct sunlight when playing. Same is true for my Cargos. For me, the advantage of carbon fiber guitars comes when I can keep them out on their guitar stands all year round in my living room without concern for having to humidify them. That seems like minor "abuse" compared to leaving them out in the direct hot sun for long periods of time.

Tony

[jmcphail]

I believe there can be problems with other joints, particularly the neck block, which may rotate slightly and cause permanent geometry problems.

I tried to buy a 2 year old guitar and ended up returning it - *something* had happened to it. The action was really high, there was no saddle left to work with and the break angle was almost nonexistent. This was a big name guitar, either it left the maker with a grossly underset neck, or *something* happened.

My guess was a heat related incident.

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

It seems to me that if a wood guitar got anywhere near that hot, there would be other damage before the glue that holds the bridge were to soften. Besides that, is it really that difficult to reinstall the bridge if that does happen? ...
Tony

[captivate]

Well, I wouldn't play an acoustic guitar in direct sunlight, anyway. *shrug* It causes UV damage to the finish and the glue softens. I'd rather be in the shade, anyway.

[raulb]

Therein lies the reason that composite aircraft tend to be white.

[devellis]

One of the claims often made for carbon fiber guitars is that you can leave them in your car irrespective of the weather. Well, any temperature that the surface of the guitar can attain in the open air from direct sunlight it can certainly attain in a closed car if it's getting sunlight directly on it through the window. So, I guess despite what's been said, don't leave a carbon fiber guitar on the rear-window shelf of your car on a sunny day! Frankly, I couldn't imagine doing that no matter what the guitar was made of.

[Long813]

Originally Posted by raulb

Therein lies the reason that composite aircraft tend to be white.

Time to add a new finish colour to Rainsong's finishes.

Just to note, I would have thought it was common sense that heat would be bad for the carbon guitars. Unless it's all one piece, there is going to be some adhesive to hold things together.

[ResoN]

Remember, according to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, 'a locked car sitting in the summer sun quickly turns into an oven,' and 'temperatures can climb from 78 degrees to 100 degrees in just three minutes, to 125 degrees in 6-8 minutes.'

It's a bad idea to leave any guitar in a car on a hot day, but I'm not sure it would ever reach 175 degrees inside, perhaps if you were in Phoenix AZ, on a 120 degree day. I think 130 to 150 degrees is more likely. The guitar does not have to have direct sunlight on it to reach high temperatures.

It's really a problem when traveling in the summer. Do you take your guitar inside a restaurant if you stop on the way to eat? I used to use a silver insulated case cover over my hard case when I was out with my guitar and knew I might have to leave the guitar in the car for a short time. The guitar was never damaged, so I assume the case cover worked. I naver tried putting a thermometer inside the case to test it.

[tbeltrans]

It seems to me that if we treat our carbon fiber instruments with the same care that we do our wood instruments, things should work out fine. I see the exception being that we can leave our carbon fiber instruments out on guitar stands, ready to play (indoors) during any season. But exposing the instruments to extreme cold or heat could be asking for trouble, since there are other materials used in making these carbon fiber instruments. To me, just keeping it simple and using some common sense should take care of all these concerns.

Tony

[edward993]

Yup, commons sense should prevail, to be sure. But isn't the main point of composite guitars that one can have stability/durability without regard to the elements?

That said, I am not convinced that 175deg is truly a legitimate concern if we're talking about common sense, though. That temp sounds more like intentional abuse (or at the very least forseeable neglect) than regular circumstances a guitar may undergo ...like playing in the direct sun fer cryin out loud. If a guitar can't handle the latter, then don't take it out; but if a composite can't handle something as mundane as playing in the sun, then what the heck is it good for?!! Spend all that dough to what, baby it?!!

Edward

[jperryrocks]

Somebody's playing on the patio in Hawaii and it's 90-100 degrees every day?....that's a limited market my friend and not many kolks have that type a gig.


You need to by a cheaper laminate guitar for playing outside live when it's 90-95 degrees out.

Composite or not, in the heat and humidity, they're all hot. But I could see the blacl carbo composite attracting more heat.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Oakland

I was talking to Doug McMaster, a brilliant slack key player on Kauai. He was telling me how he had gone through 17 guitars in 7 years of playing daily outdoor sunset concerts. We got to talking about composite guitars as an alternative and he mentioned that he had tried a Rainsong, but it got so hot in the sun he couldn't hold on to it. (I'm sure the same is true for any black composite guitar.) He got in touch with Rainsong and they told him getting the guitar that hot could soften the glue used for the bridge too. So, I guess you can take your composite guitar to the beach -- but only at night -- or if it has its own beach umbrella.

Interesting story. Given the same sun soaking that would overheat a Rainsong to the point where you can't touch it would probably destroy a wood guitar so I'm not sure if I believe the story. Then again the guy does burn through 2.5 guitar a year.

I had my CA OX out in the sun on my boat and on the beach all last summer with no damage. In fact after selling many hundreds of composite guitars I have never heard of a bridge coming unglued with any of them. Obviously leaving any guitar out in the sun is not a great idea, but as far as I know the glue used on composite guitars is not heat sensitive like the glue used on wood guitars.

BTW, please froward my info to your friend, I would love to be his guitar supplier.