How to practice?

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by TomiPaldanius

Learning mechanically first is fine but try to get more into listening as soon as possible. Best scenario is that only learning material is the music = no written notation.

I know you keep saying it over and over, but when you make it a blanket statement you are then incorrect. Learn strictly by ear, and/or use standard notation, tabs, video, friends, whatever. A lot depends on what piece one is trying to learn. Some pieces are easy to quickly figure out by just listening, but for other pieces it would be a pointless and brutal slog. The "I'll learn the outline and general gist of this piece" approach is ultimately rather sloppy IMO where one is more likely to fall into their personal ruts rather than learn specific new ideas and methods. Precise note for note learning has its value and is more likely to take someone beyond where they have been hanging out.

Also written notation is a library of new things to learn, and of revisiting things you have learned in the past. When you have developed sight reading skills it is a real pleasure going through the music looking for interesting new pieces, or reviewing pieces you have not played for some time.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I know you keep saying it over and over, but when you make it a blanket statement you are then incorrect. Learn strictly by ear, and/or use standard notation, tabs, video, friends, whatever. A lot depends on what piece one is trying to learn. Some pieces are easy to quickly figure out by just listening, but for other pieces it would be a pointless and brutal slog. The "I'll learn the outline and general gist of this piece" approach is ultimately rather sloppy IMO where one is more likely to fall into their personal ruts rather than learn specific new ideas and methods. Precise note for note learning has its value and is more likely to take someone beyond where they have been hanging out.

Also written notation is a library of new things to learn, and of revisiting things you have learned in the past. When you have developed sight reading skills it is a real pleasure going through the music looking for interesting new pieces, or reviewing pieces you have not played for some time.

Here's an analogy on the relative importance of aural and visual learning methods:

There are many great blind musicians. Other than Beethoven in his last years, I'm unaware of any deaf musicians.

[rick-slo]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

Here's an analogy on the relative importance of aural and visual learning methods:

There are many great blind musicians. Other than Beethoven in his last years, I'm unaware of any deaf musicians.

It's not a zero-sum game, either or, situation. Regarding Beethoven, if I remember correctly Beethoven wrote out his music scores for the performers to play.
As an aside, there is braille sheet music, though I would think that would be a tougher nut to learn from.

[Wyllys]

Playing all the notes in the right order is not necessarily music, though.

[cesare]

Originally Posted by Fatstrat

Another "theory" of mine. I can't prove scientifically that it works. But I firmly believe it does for me.
Run through whatever you're working on right before you go to bed. So that it's fresh in your memory when you go to sleep. Somehow for for me, it just seems like brain kinda puts things together a bit during the night. I swear, when I get up in the morning, I can almost always play it better than I did the night before.

Wow great advise..

[cesare]

Originally Posted by TomiPaldanius

Learning mechanically first is fine but try to get more into listening as soon as possible. Best scenario is that only learning material is the music = no written notation.

Am surely not there yet.. will take a lot more time to listen and make sense of how to play

[amyFB]

In retrospect I believe I learned most stuff by brute force, a song at time in the beginning, and as I conquered stuff my desire to know the underpinnings was the springboard to the next step.

Some of it is rote practice over and over and over and over and over and over and over .....

I am right now trying to master this progression that is a quick turnaround in a song I am working on. Everywhere else in the song the C#dim comes after a C with lots of space and is an easy jump up the neck - but coming from the Em in a quick run -

I got knots in my knuckles and am performing it Friday night so I am done with my bReak here and going back on the strings!

Don't give up. Play something you know and love every day to remind yourself of what you already have accomplished

Em O22OOO
C#dim X4535X
Dm7 XXO211
G7 23OOO1




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[TomiPaldanius]

I don't see any reason defending learning from notation. Problem is the whole system. We put a piece of paper front of a child at the first music lesson. Is that a good way to teach/learn music?

I would change that method any day to the way for example how Tommy Emmanuel learned. He played guessing games with his brother. They played music to each other without seeing the guitars and that way both became great and unique. They can learn songs instantly.

When you start with notation, you will get into that unhealthy ratio of mechanical learning compared to ability to listen from day 1. It is understandable because notation is 2000-3000 years old and for example YouTube is 10 years old. Education system is also behind. We teach memorization instead of a practical skill. I know some teachers who are in that trap also that bringing papers to the class is the best idea. How about listening some real music for a change?

I went to Nashville 7 years back to back and I learned my lesson by asking, hearing, looking that all the best players are ear players. They maybe use nashville number system now and then or write tabs about what they hear but they understand music by listening. Not by looking notation. Reading music is a must for very small amount of people and as I can read also it will be difficult to say it is useless. It is not but it is not as important as learning to play by ear and developing good ear.

If you can prove me that best guitar players who ever lived on earth are tab/notation players and they learned their craft using notation and you can also show me that it is the fastest way to learn, then I will change back to tabs and notation. Otherwise I suggest spending 3-5 years time learning core skills about learning music by ear.

I used to fail my ear training exams at my professional studies because lack of understanding the practical aspects. Ear training classes were with piano and only 1-2 hours/week. After the class we went back reading from papers what music is. I remember how less actual listening of music I had during that 5 years. Best thing I learned was the mechanical aspects. Good playing technique and classical approach to phrasing, voice leading etc.

You know what? I just learned Bohemian Rhapsody by ear. I never thought it will be possible. But of course it would be impossible 6 years ago with untrained ears. Everyone can look into the mirror and ask what is their ratio learning by ear compared to learning by notation. I've been going to 100% to 0% past few years. In some rare cases I go and search a sheet music to check was I right or was the original wrong. But never as a first option for learning.

I think with learning by ear there can be much more unique players because each individual hears music different way.

I know I am here in minority but if this forum would have Tommy Emmanuel, Richard Smith and other greats. They would kindly say to you that go into ear training as soon as possible. That is the advice I got from the greats. I trust them.

Why I am so strict about using tabs only... Well it is like alcoholics... You cannot say to them that drink a little less now. They need to stop completely. Otherwise they go back to the same unhealthy life again. Maybe too harsh but I am tired seeing players stuck to same level for 10-20 years thinking that they just need some new tabs to play.

But I keep posting here as a lonely wolf. Everyone can do what they want

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by TomiPaldanius

I keep posting here as a lonely wolf.

Don't flatter yourself.

[rick-slo]

I realize there are business aspects to the no notation push. Therefore I have let slide many earlier posts. Many world class musicians make constant daily use of written notation both in learning new music and in playing with other musicians, and other excellent players are in a situation where they can do what they need to do without any music reading skills. I believe inclusion rather than exclusion is the way to go the farthest and with the widest palette of choices to choose from.

[TomiPaldanius]

Originally Posted by rick-slo

I realize there are business aspects to the no notation push. Therefore I have let slide many earlier posts. Many world class musicians make constant daily use of written notation both in learning new music and in playing with other musicians, and other excellent players are in a situation where they can do what they need to do without any music reading skills. I believe inclusion rather than exclusion is the way to go the farthest and with the widest palette of choices to choose from.

I understand your point. I just see very unhealthy ratio which will hopefully change in future. Funny thing is that I can prove that learning by ear is more natural and better way. I just don't have resources and like you said there is business side of it.

We are planning a music school here in Bangkok with my idea but possible investor is worried that what we teach to the students after 3-5 years after they can learn everything they want by themselves.

I am still beginner myself with many things so learning will never end. For example I cannot hear that many chord progressions instantly without the guitar, I have poor ability learning lyrics of songs and many other. There is so many things to be better with but one of them is not to be able to play from tabs better .

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by cesare

To be honest, I can play most chords and have built a sense of understanding of sound for various chords and notes.

And I am stuck here.. don't know what to schedule or how to practice & enjoy that session as well. Tried picking up a song and practicing, but just not moving anywhere and so end up stopping midway and doing something else.

Is this a generic problem for a new guitar player or is it just me? Am I just not focused enough to learn?

Would love to hear how you all motivate yourself everyday and keep learning.

And apologies if this topic has been beaten to death already.

Back to the original question:

Whenever I pick up the guitar I tend to start with the same tune and play until my hands warm up and I feel a solid groove. At that point I've pretty much left the everyday world, found the zone and am ready to try something new. Then and only then do I start with new stuff or work out new ideas for the old stuff.

[dkstott]

Hello, My name is Dave and I am "paper trained"... My first guitar lessons in the mid 60's involved having sheet music and locating notes on the fretboard.

When I wanted to learn a new song, the instructor pulled out the sheet music or his fake book.

The benefit is that I can read sheet music/ tab & can play most arrangements by sight.

The downside is that I became dependent on having to have sheet music or tab to play a song.

It took me 30 years to break the habit. I can now figure out most pop songs by ear or with assistance from a YouTube video when a chord sound stumps me.

I play almost entirely fingerstyle. Call me lazy, but to this day, I'd rather find a fingerstyle arrangement or tab of a song that I want to play and learn it.

I learn the song as written and then I work it on it for hours to make it more personal with chord subs or improv.


Dave

[stanron]

Originally Posted by amyFB

.....

I am right now trying to master this progression that is a quick turnaround in a song I am working on. Everywhere else in the song the C#dim comes after a C with lots of space and is an easy jump up the neck - but coming from the Em in a quick run -

Em O22OOO
C#dim X4535X
Dm7 XXO211
G7 23OOO1

try

X X 2 3 2 3

instead of

X 4 5 3 5 X

for the turnaround it works well.

[amyFB]

Originally Posted by stanron

try



X X 2 3 2 3



instead of



X 4 5 3 5 X



for the turnaround it works well.

Hey thanks for that idea stanron!

I will use that after the Em , it works really well.

After the C is another story. In my ears all I can hear is "there were bells, on a hill..." which is so *not* the song I am singing! However There are a few spots where i can take advantage of its ergonomic appeal.

Here is a link to a recording where I explore various voicings of the progression
C C#dim Dm G7

https://www.dropbox.com/s/avldjlxzxo...tions.wav?dl=0

It starts and ends with my fav for this particular piece x4535x

Cheerios







Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk