Improve Rhythm by Counting Out Loud

[s0cks]

I've been doing this for a while and it helped immensely, but it was nice to see a video explaining why this helps so much. I don't often see this recommended by guitarists/bassists - though I have seen it recommended by piano teachers and other stringed instrument teachers like violin and cello.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qIfD7ZN5FYI

If you do want to try it, bear in mind it is hard at first. But once you've got a few songs under your belt where you can count and play at the same time it gets much easier.

[SunnyDee]

Can you fix the video? Sounds interesting.

[s0cks]

Not sure why the embedded link didn't work. Fixed to be an external link.

[SunnyDee]

Very interesting. Smart kid. Reminded me of something Ronan O'Snodaigh talks about with the rhythms having to do with counting.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rV8GIWv91I
I always count. I find DDUUDDUDUDUDUDUDUDUwhatever very annoying for me.

[srick]

I like making folks aware of this video:



For me, it was a game changer. That's when I realized that the words that I was singing were percussive. Levon really gets into this about 2:20 into the video. Much of our performance on the guitar is percussive and the timing is related to the words. For me, Levon's approach is so much more organic than trying to count "1-2-3-4".

The entire video (Homespun) is a delight to watch and very applicable to our instrument.

best,


Rick

[srick]

SunnyDee, SocKs - to make the video work, strip the leading stuff away from the link and insert it with the youtube button (looks like a play button) above

Like this: (YOUTUBE)qIfD7ZN5FYI(/YOUTUBE)



and

(YOUTUBE)_rV8GIWv91I(/YOUTUBE)



I'm using (YOUTUBE) instead of [YOUTUBE] for illustration.

best,

Rick

[dkstott]

Interesting..

Back when I was working on getting my right thumb to be steadier & consistent; it was suggested that I count each beat and confirm that the thumb was playing. It did help me quite a bit

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by srick

...Levon really gets into this about 2:20 into the video. Much of our performance on the guitar is percussive and the timing is related to the words. For me, Levon's approach is so much more organic than trying to count "1-2-3-4".

Rick

Nice one. I totally agree. I tend to think people who are having trouble singing and playing don't realize this. On the flip side, it's very important to me as a songwriter that the lyrics accent with the beat, etc.

Thanks for the video help.

[mattbn73]

The value of doing this kind of work could be easily lost on guitar/bass players who didn't get training in this way in school band programs etc. growing up, but it's absolutely foundational. I find that generally, students who can't SAY whatever we're working on, while they play it, can't PLAY it either.

When I try to get them to count out loud, very often the response or look I get is "but I can't PLAY it if I say it". When I point out that they can't play it WITHOUT saying it either, it's very often the kind of lightbulb moment with that alone. Amazingly, once you can say it/play it at a very basic level, you've got it. Some of this is worth working out with a teacher if you've never done it this way.

Last thing, one of the most profound benefits with working rhythms out loud , is that it gives you the ability to abstract TIME, something which seems basically impossible. Again, this may be difficult to appreciate if you haven't done it with band directors growing up or other teachers. But basically, you can work on counting very slowly, and without reference to time at all – slowing down/speeding up etc. , and work out complex rhythms or patterns. Once internalized, it's much easier to play them "In Time".

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

Last thing, one of the most profound benefits with working rhythms out loud , is that it gives you the ability to abstract TIME, something which seems basically impossible. Again, this may be difficult to appreciate if you haven't done it with band directors growing up or other teachers. But basically, you can work on counting very slowly, and without reference to time at all – slowing down/speeding up etc. , and work out complex rhythms or patterns. Once internalized, it's much easier to play them "In Time".

This is a great point. I didn't have any training growing up and have had to figure it out. I do this with counting on a drum before I go to guitar so I can just isolate the rhythm without the distraction of playing. I use a bodhran with a very similar motion to strumming. That might be useful for students, too.

[s0cks]

Great discussion guys.

Very interesting insights. I agree that for me, it was a sort of eureka moment when I realized that the guitar, voice, whatever, is really just percussion with tone.

I often find that tapping out the rhythm with my hands while counting out loud helps for more difficult passages. I also find tying a sock around the guitar neck to mute the strings allows me to really hear the rhythm of the track and practice it that way (as it's far more obvious when the finger plays a note out of time).

Lastly, sometimes it's just about where to focus attention. I am prone to leaving my right hand on autopilot, but I found the more focus I give my right hand, the better I tend to play. And I do this by thinking of my right hand as a beat generator that's plucking strings to the beat. Really hard to explain in words, but it's a bit like tapping your foot. When you tap your foot you don't think about when to next tap, you just feel when is right, and applying this same mindset to my right hand helps a lot.

[LSemmens]

Eureka!!!! I never did learn how to count when I was learning - being self taught. My timing is usually adequate but never fantastic. I certainly can read music and understand what a piece is trying to do but I must hear the piece before I attempt to play it in any manner resembling the intent of the composer. Gonna have to try this! Thanks guys!

[creamburmese]

I'm a convert. Was having horrible problems playing a renaissance piece (doesn't have a "modern" rhythm/downbeat) cos the fast parts kept running away with me as soon as I turned the metronome off. Guitar teacher suggested counting the beats and subdivisions out loud, and after struggling with it for a day or 2 - it finally clicked, and indeed the tempo problems got fixed!

[SunnyDee]

If people are always saying "practice with a metronome," but you're not really sure you're getting the most out of that, this is a nice/fun/painless free course, Metronome Boot Camp. Guy's a good writer and inspirational. He uses a particular app, but since I don't have anything with iOS, I'm just using a different one and it's fine so far with that.

https://fretboardanatomy.com/

[paulp1960]

Counting is essential IMO to learning rhythm properly.

You should be able to feel/count the 4/4 in everything you play (assuming it is in 4/4). You need to know where the bars start, it's not enough to tap your foot to a continuous beat.