The Acoustic Guitar Forum

Go Back   The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Reply
 
Thread Tools
  #16  
Old 05-07-2017, 05:32 AM
HHP HHP is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 29,351
Default

I find it harder to memorize your method for memorization than just memorizing a tune. I get it in my head, then put it in my fingers, then play it enough so I get to a point where I couldn't verbally describe or transcribe the melody and chords without a guitar in my hands. I usually just think "Play 'XYZ' now" and the brain and fingers take it from there.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 05-07-2017, 05:46 AM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

Memory is associative, or memory works through links. Think of one thing and your memory will immediately have a range of things associated with it ready for you to access, should you wish. What works for me is to memorise the sound of a piece of music. Then I can associate with the sound what my hands were doing when I made that sound.

Over the years this has developed to the point where I can hear a new musical phrase and know what my hands have to do to play that phrase. I've not got perfect pitch, thank goodness, so I might not play it in the same key but I can find the right key if I want to. People call this playing by ear but I prefer to think of it as playing by memory, sound memory.

I'm not thinking of theory or theoretical concepts. I know my theory well enough but thinking theory is so desperately slow compared with associating the sound of notes with what my hands have to do to play them. I've never consciously tried to learn this. It came from spending lots of time copying sounds I heard.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 05-07-2017, 05:55 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
Memory is associative, or memory works through links. Think of one thing and your memory will immediately have a range of things associated with it ready for you to access, should you wish. What works for me is to memorise the sound of a piece of music. Then I can associate with the sound what my hands were doing when I made that sound.

Over the years this has developed to the point where I can hear a new musical phrase and know what my hands have to do to play that phrase. I've not got perfect pitch, thank goodness, so I might not play it in the same key but I can find the right key if I want to. People call this playing by ear but I prefer to think of it as playing by memory, sound memory.

I'm not thinking of theory or theoretical concepts. I know my theory well enough but thinking theory is so desperately slow compared with associating the sound of notes with what my hands have to do to play them. I've never consciously tried to learn this. It came from spending lots of time copying sounds I heard.
That's awesome. This is true playing by ear. You're right it's much faster than thinking theory. Many people say they "play by ear" when what they really do is watch a video or listen very slowly then hunt around on their instrument till they hit the right note, then hunt for the next one, etc.

Do you have any idea how to tell others how to develop the skill you have?
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 05-07-2017, 06:14 AM
stanron stanron is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,428
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by SunnyDee View Post
Many people say they "play by ear" when what they really do is watch a video or listen very slowly then hunt around on their instrument till they hit the right note, then hunt for the next one, etc.

Do you have any idea how to tell others how to develop the skill you have?
I started in the way you described above, and just kept at it. Memory is like a muscle. Exercise it and it will get stronger. The 'hunt and peck' method will work if you remember what you got from it. It starts off as a slow process but with repetition it gets faster.

Listening to recorded music and picking bits up one note at a time will develop your memory for sound and your associating that sound with what your hands do. Just do lots of it.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 05-07-2017, 06:23 AM
SunnyDee SunnyDee is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: May 2016
Location: Washington, DC
Posts: 1,031
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by stanron View Post
I started in the way you described above, and just kept at it. Memory is like a muscle. Exercise it and it will get stronger. The 'hunt and peck' method will work if you remember what you got from it. It starts off as a slow process but with repetition it gets faster.

Listening to recorded music and picking bits up one note at a time will develop your memory for sound and your associating that sound with what your hands do. Just do lots of it.
That makes sense. One teacher says you should spend some time doing everything in one key. That would make remembering much easier and makes sense to me.
__________________
"Militantly left-handed."

Lefty Acoustics

Martin 00-15M
Taylor 320e Baritone

Cheap Righty Classical (played upside down ala Elizabeth Cotten)
Reply With Quote
  #21  
Old 05-07-2017, 07:51 AM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by LSemmens View Post
I fail to comprehend how using Nashville numbering or any other numbering scheme is going to simplify things. To me it just introduces another layer of complexity. It may make it easier transposing on the fly, but you've still got to remember the intervals well enough to remember a fifth above Bb is F but, suddenly, transpose that to E and you've suddenly got to think on the fly. I'd rather just remember the progression and, if necessary, use a capo if I can't find a decent fit for the progression.
There seems to be an assumption that if it's more difficult currently, it always WILL be. This may be a natural assumption, but it's not the way the mind works. It's like learning another language or label for something you already "know". You already know theses sounds and relationships in the subconscious sense. Learning what they're called (without reference to specific key or pitch) is very simple compared to learning to play in the first place.

The value can't actually be appreciated without actually doing some of it. The difference in thinking/hearing is something akin to hearing/thinking in sentences as opposed to single syllables or words.
Reply With Quote
  #22  
Old 05-07-2017, 01:22 PM
FwL FwL is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Oct 2016
Location: USA
Posts: 301
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
There seems to be an assumption that if it's more difficult currently, it always WILL be. This may be a natural assumption, but it's not the way the mind works. It's like learning another language or label for something you already "know". You already know theses sounds and relationships in the subconscious sense. Learning what they're called (without reference to specific key or pitch) is very simple compared to learning to play in the first place.

The value can't actually be appreciated without actually doing some of it. The difference in thinking/hearing is something akin to hearing/thinking in sentences as opposed to single syllables or words.

Well said. I was trying to think of a way to put it, but you nailed it
.
.
__________________
.
.

Playing Guitar - Books, Free Lessons & Practice Resources
Reply With Quote
  #23  
Old 05-07-2017, 01:38 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
There seems to be an assumption that if it's more difficult currently, it always WILL be. This may be a natural assumption, but it's not the way the mind works. It's like learning another language or label for something you already "know". You already know theses sounds and relationships in the subconscious sense. Learning what they're called (without reference to specific key or pitch) is very simple compared to learning to play in the first place.

The value can't actually be appreciated without actually doing some of it. The difference in thinking/hearing is something akin to hearing/thinking in sentences as opposed to single syllables or words.
I.E. doing something reflexively without having to think about it. Kind of what you need to do when moving quickly, without pause, through a performance. More or less my point earlier, and I believe the one by LSemmens.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #24  
Old 05-07-2017, 01:45 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I.E. doing something reflexively without having to think about it. Kind of what you need to do when moving quickly, without pause, through a performance. More or less my point earlier, and I believe the one by LSemmens.
Right, but it's really just label for something you already do . They aren't mutually exclusive.

I have a daughter learning to drive. She literally thinks about everything: hands, feet, sequences of events very linearly. I tried to explain to her that you don't always have to think that much . Once you learn, it's an automatic process.

Still, even though it is mostly an unconscious "wordless " process, I can still verbalize and label steps in the process . I can abstract it into ideas and concepts without it hindering these wordless thoughts. It's not going to slow me down. One does not necessarily interfere with the other.
Reply With Quote
  #25  
Old 05-07-2017, 02:01 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
Right, but it's really just label for something you already do . They aren't mutually exclusive.

I have a daughter learning to drive. She literally thinks about everything: hands, feet, sequences of events very linearly. I tried to explain to her that you don't always have to think that much . Once you learn, it's an automatic process.

Still, even though it is mostly an unconscious "wordless " process, I can still verbalize and label steps in the process . I can abstract it into ideas and concepts without it hindering these wordless thoughts. It's not going to slow me down. One does not necessarily interfere with the other.
IMO it is contextual and pace related. Various ways of analyzing music that may each be an aide when working out something given an adequate time frame to employ them is useful to have. At the performance stage it is about reflexes and micro timed anticipations of the next hand and finger movements coming up. IMO it is more effective to free up conscious thought time to be devoted to the musical expression you want to use. Maybe really simple and/or quite slow music is somewhat of an exception and of course in the few moments you have prior playing something you have time to think a few different things through.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #26  
Old 05-07-2017, 02:17 PM
mattbn73 mattbn73 is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Sep 2016
Posts: 286
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
IMO it is contextual and pace related. Various ways of analyzing music that may each be an aide when working out something given an adequate time frame to employ them is useful to have. At the performance stage it is about reflexes and micro timed anticipations of the next hand and finger movements coming up. IMO it is more effective to free up conscious thought time to be devoted to the musical expression you want to use. Maybe really simple and/or quite slow music is somewhat of an exception and of course in the few moments you have prior playing something you have time to think a few different things through.
Again, one is not affected by the other. Being able to execute something faster than you can verbalize it doesn't mean that you can't describe it after-the-fact or put a label on it. there's a popular notion in these kind of discussions which is something to the effect of "you can't think words that quickly. So, don't ever think words at all, even in the practice room ."

Martial arts instructors verbalize movements, break them down , maybe talk about them in very very fine detail. It's then understood that STUDENT is responsible to take that knowledge and practice it, to develop it into AUTOMATIC responses which are faster than verbal/symbolic/linear thought processes. automatic and unconscious is assumed to be the standard in all cases, but you still learn basic terminology . One simply doesn't hinder the other.
Reply With Quote
  #27  
Old 05-07-2017, 02:23 PM
TBman's Avatar
TBman TBman is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: New Jersey
Posts: 35,829
Default

Lyrics always helped my remember the chords way back when I strummed and sung along with myself. Kind of like a 3 way reconciliation - melody to chords to words.
__________________
Barry

Sad Moments {Marianne Vedral cover}:


My SoundCloud page

Some steel strings, some nylon.
Reply With Quote
  #28  
Old 05-07-2017, 02:26 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Twin Cities
Posts: 8,085
Default

Tunes I learn by ear seem to stick in my memory much better than tunes I get off a sheet of paper. I have no explanation except that science tells us we use different parts of our brain for hearing and seeing. Maybe that part of my brain works better?

Tony
__________________
“The guitar is a wonderful thing which is understood by few.”
— Franz Schubert

"Alexa, where's my stuff?"
- Anxiously waiting...
Reply With Quote
  #29  
Old 05-07-2017, 02:29 PM
rick-slo's Avatar
rick-slo rick-slo is offline
Charter Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: San Luis Obispo, CA
Posts: 17,172
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by mattbn73 View Post
Again, one is not affected by the other. Being able to execute something faster than you can verbalize it doesn't mean that you can't describe it after-the-fact or put a label on it. there's a popular notion in these kind of discussions which is something to the effect of "you can't think words that quickly. So, don't ever think words at all, even in the practice room ."

Martial arts instructors verbalize movements, break them down , maybe talk about them in very very fine detail. It's then understood that STUDENT is responsible to take that knowledge and practice it, to develop it into AUTOMATIC responses which are faster than verbal/symbolic/linear thought processes. automatic and unconscious is assumed to be the standard in all cases, but you still learn basic terminology . One simply doesn't hinder the other.
Naturally. My son is up to his brown belt now and I have attended many of his classes. You practice to get to the point where it is internalized and automatic, reflexive. However I guess this is a tangent discussion to the OP's comments which are probably more related to how remember a song's basic structure well enough prior to jumping in and playing it.
__________________
Derek Coombs
Youtube -> Website -> Music -> Tabs
Guitars by Mark Blanchard, Albert&Mueller, Paul Woolson, Collings, Composite Acoustics, and Derek Coombs

"Reality is that which when you stop believing in it, doesn't go away."

Woods hands pick by eye and ear
Made to one with pride and love
To be that we hold so dear
A voice from heavens above
Reply With Quote
  #30  
Old 05-18-2017, 03:26 PM
B3N B3N is offline
Registered User
 
Join Date: Jan 2017
Posts: 189
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Paultergeist View Post
Greetings.

I have been wrestling with this concept for a while now, and I was curious if others may have had similar experiences or possibly had useful insights to share:

I sometimes struggle with memorization of songs, especially if a lot of songs (several sets) are involved. To some extent, I have performed harmonic analysis -- by which I mean I would look at the song via the (Roman numerals) degrees -- to better understand the song and to see if doing so helped my recall [memory] of the song. From what I gather, some players -- especially jazz players -- think in terms of the numbers and functions of the chords, more so than simply the name of the chord itself. I would like to incorporate that ability into my playing and memorization. I am just not sure if this is helping me.....maybe I am doing something wrong.....I am open to ideas.

As an easy example: consider these two lines from "One" by U2. For simplicity, I am expressing the song in the key of Am or C:

The first line (verse section, if you will) is pretty easy. I personally *feel* it as being in the key of Am [as presented], but some will argue that it is in the corresponding major key:

/ Am / Dm7 / F / G /

I would "harmonically analyze" this as being a i....iv....VI....VII in the key of Am.


The song later moves to the chorus, and the relative major chord -- in this case, the C -- is employed:

/ C / Am / F / G /

I would consider this to be a I....vi....IV....V in the key of C.

I am simply presenting my *homework* here -- please feel free to correct me if you see any errors. BUT MY QUESTION IS: How does this exercise of harmonic analysis *help* in the execution of the song? In particular, how does applying harmonic analysis help one memorize a song? This far in the song (pretty much the whole song, really) there are only five chords, but if I apply harmonic analysis, I find that I end up with eight Roman numeral chord designations.

This just seems to be adding complexity; I just don't see what I might be gaining in the context of playing the song in this case.

It feels particularly cumbersome for me to try to consciously *think* "minor one...minor four....major six....key of Am..." etc., as opposed to just memorizing the chords themselves.

I am just trying to wrap my brain around this a little better.....thanks for any useful thoughts.
I didn't read all the discussion so forgive me if I repeat something that has been already told.

I think learning a song through degrees has, s everything, pros and cons :

pros :
- the only i see is for transposition. You learn a standard by its degrees instead of chord names, and it will be easier to transpose to another key.
So easy tunes, that are subject to transpositions (blues, rythmn changes, jazz or folk standards) are really worth the effort. Helps you being flexible with playing tunes


cons :
- with complex harmonies and key changes, the stuff can become really complicated. because you have to process the key changes but without seeing it clearly. Another thing is using harmonic degrees represent a certain interpretation of harmony. Chord names are more neutral...
Reply With Quote
Reply

  The Acoustic Guitar Forum > General Acoustic Guitar and Amplification Discussion > PLAY and Write

Thread Tools





All times are GMT -6. The time now is 02:11 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, The Acoustic Guitar Forum
vB Ad Management by =RedTyger=