#16
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I ended up deciding to try this bracing pattern on my next project which will probably start next week (depending on my teacher's work shop availability). I'll be uploading images and using all the information and help that were given in this topic. Once again, thank you very much.
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Hikari. Last edited by HikariGuitars; 10-03-2015 at 10:30 AM. Reason: adding information |
#17
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I seem to say this a lot, but...
I think that the Gore/Gilet books would answer an awful lot of your questions. A lot of guys don't want to buy them cause it's not as sexy as a new set of wood, but the information contained therein will benefit you more than the cost of wood for one guitar, and will greatly enhance your ability to use the next set of wood a lot better. As well, you don't need to be in the shop to use them. You can enhance your knowledge on coffee break. I also think it's in your best interest to use the most economical woods that you can until your understanding of the process and woodworking skills increases. Maybe Braz is cheap in your town, I don't know... |
#18
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Aye sir! Thank you very much for the information! I didn't know Trevor Gore had books! I'll definitely try to buy one of his books (if I find them). I searched and searched for Ervin's books in any book store of Brazil but I couldn't find (nor in shelves in my town nor online). Hopefully, I'll have more luck with Gore/gilet books. Sadly, some of the "sweet" stuff don't come to Brazil, such as Luthier books ( they are rare up to nonexistent here). Therefore, my knowledge (and the knowledge of most guitar builders here), is basically on experiences transmitted from teacher to student and empirical tests. Regarding my wood choice, I have been slowly saving up to buy them and stock them. That being said, BRW isn't cheap here either. Nor is Adirondack (since it comes from US and in Brazil we don't really have the culture of "steel string guitars". Most national music uses nylon string guitars, therefore, most luthiers here choose to specialize in that area. Therefore, I'm the odd ball here. I love the sound of steel string guitars and I hardly like nylon. My teacher is specialized in nylon string guitars. Thus, his knowledge is usually limited to how to build guitar and what he could get from his teacher/experience, so is mine. I have a few plans for the future and hopefully from next year or in 2017 I can book a trip to US and there I'll try to find and buy all the books I can't find in Brazil. Once again, thanks for the information about the new books.
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Hikari. |
#19
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A while ago, I purchased Mr. Somogyi's books from Amazon.ca. They just happened to be about half the price of Amazon.com or other retailers. Neither two-volume set is easy reading. Neither is inexpensive. Both dedicate the first volume to an explanation of how the instrument works and what things influence the type of sound produced. Mr. Gore's explanation is largely hard-core science and quantitative, though with summaries for those who don't want or need a lot of the mathematics; Mr. Somogyi's explanation is more qualitative and discusses more "philosophic" aspects of guitar making. Both dedicate the second volume to practical aspects of how to manufacture guitars. Mr. Gore's treatment is more "modern", while Mr. Somogyi's is more traditional. Both are important contributions to guitar making literature. Neither would be my recommendation for a beginning guitar maker to learn the woodworking involved. I would recommend them for those who are well-versed in the mechanics of actual guitar making and are ready for increased insight into what to do to influence the sound of the instruments one makes. |
#20
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There truth to that for sure, yet they do touch very directly on exactly what he's been asking about. There are certainly easier 'how to' books out there, such as the Cumpiano/Natelson books. They'll take you a long way.
Kits are also a good way to start, and in fact you can get 'Irish' kits from KMG guitars. Not a bad place to start to get a median sense of thicknesses and such. Hikari, Sitka is probably your cheapest option, especially if you buy low grade. There's no particular magic in adi. It has it's own characteristics, but it's not necessary, and in fact, for the same amount of money, you can usually find better quality Sitka. Anyway, good luck in your journey. I guess the only other thing I'd say is maybe learn to build a normal 'traditional' guitar fairly well to your satisfaction before endeavoring to 'improve' upon it. |
#21
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Sam |
#22
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On 14-fret dreadnoughts with forward-X bracing a red spruce top, I find the most balance when the bracing dimensions are as follows: X-brace minimum = 5/16" to 3/8". Tone bar minimum = 1/4" to 9/32". X-braces are 0.325" wide by 0.625" tall. Tone bars are 0.325" wide by 9/16" tall. Brace height is very critical....much more so than top thickness or width of the braces. |
#23
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Since the brace height is so critical, John, then perhaps it would be better to express the tone bar height as a precise 0.5625" rather than 9/16" ...
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#24
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Sorry, I've been caught up on some serious family issue (one of relatives got arrested and I had to deal with all the paper work).
That aside, I already thank you all very much for the collaboration on this thread! Now into the topic: Quote:
I'll check amazon.ca and see if they ship to Brazil, if they do, I'll see if I can purchase them! However, considering the dollar ratio to my currency at the moment I doubt It'll be any close to affordable (1$= 4 R$ [my currency]) The "how to" (wood working) I can learn from my teacher. My biggest problem is knowing and "predicting" the consequences of every choice I make on the guitar, thus, I think somogyi's and (?) Gore/Gilet books could give me these answers. Hopefully I can get them somehow. Yesterday I went to 3 different malls and looked over into all libraries that were available at them and I couldn't even find a citation of Somogyi's nor Gore's book. -Sobs- Quote:
As I stated before, the "how to make" or rather,wood work and assembling I can learn from my teacher, who's really well versed on nylon guitars (he doesn't know his science but he builds pretty awesome nylon string guitars from his experience). Regarding Kits, it's very unlikely that I can get one for a decent price here in Brazil. Cheapest Kit I can find is one from martin and it's for 2400 reais (or 600$). With that money I can pretty much make a premium guitar. I payed 150 reais for my adirondack top (supposedly Master Grade) I pay around 800 reais for legalized BRW back and sides (ronay.com.br), 50 reais for mahogany (neck, head, and structure), 100 reais for ebony finger board, 30 reais for ebony bridge, around 50 reais for a two way trust rod, 60 reais for 1.2m for frets and around 200 reais for quality tuning keys (with tune lock), around 100 reais for german spruce wood for bracing (couldn't find adirondack), totaling 1540 reais or 385 $ (but plaese, bear in mind that earning 1 real is a lot harder than earning 1$ - hourly minimum wage here is around 3,28 reais or 0.82 dollars). I'd love to try sitka on one of my future projects! It's just that I already own an adirondack top ready to use. I actually snatched the last adirondack top my provider had that could be used for an OM guitar (all the other pieces can only be used for classical guitar tops or parlor size), and I got a it really cheap! It was actually cheaper than a master grade sitka top (adirondack isn't particularly popular here)! However, using low grade wood for top isn't something I wanna do. it might be expensive to test with quality tops and I might actually be "screwing up" good wood but I really wanna hear the full potential of the work I'm doing - even if it's amateur and mediocre. Since this guitar will be my own guitar, I wanna try to make it as good as I can (the other 2 guitars I made my teacher sold it under his name - since he supervised me and basically did half of the work. Also, since he wasn't charging for his classes and provided most the material and all the tools I think it'd be only fair). Also, my teacher allowed me to choose the B/S woods from his personal stock for this guitar (because it'll be mine)!Therefore, I'll have no expanse on these woods. So I'll be posting pictures of the set of wood once I go to his work shop! Regarding last paragraph, thank you very much for the encouragement, and I'll certainly try my best. I'll discuss the bracing pattern with my teacher and see what he thinks (he's an old folk so he'll probably go along with a more "traditionalist" vision. Quote:
It's incredibly pleasant to have someone of your caliber sharing information regarding his build methods and bracing choices! Thank you very much for all that precise information! Regarding the scalloping being too deep, it probably happened due to my teacher's experience with nylon string guitars (he exclusively build them since he started learning how to build guitars), they are usually very low in height. Therefore, since he was supervising what I was doing, there's a high probability that he thought as a "nylon string maker". Into the measures that you kindly shared with us, would that same logic work for a finger style OM ? (I'm not really into dreadnoughts) Thank you very much all and once I have the chance I'll be taking pictures of all the sets of wood I have to use and I'll be eager to hear what you guys think about it! EDIT: After John Arnold said I'd need a similar bracing pattern as lowden/mcpherson to achieve a similar tone, I made this: https://www.dropbox.com/s/vbsehz3yjr...12812.jpg?dl=0 it's very similar to Lowden bracing pattern, however, it doesn't cut up the bridge plate, allowing bridge pins and spreading the string tension in a different angle. Any thoughts on this? Also, about thickness of the braces or so.
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Hikari. Last edited by HikariGuitars; 10-04-2015 at 08:18 AM. Reason: Added picture. |
#25
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#26
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In portuguese it's called rabo de andorinha, I think it's something like dove neck (?). He carves a Squared "V" on the neck and a negative version of it on the body and attach it. He usually leave the guitar stringed without glue for a few days playing to see if the guitar is enough stabilized before glueing. If I have the opportunity I'll take pictures when I go to his work shop if he's working on a guitar. Edit: it's called Dovetail neck joint. But he uses a slightly modified version. I think it's a little bit narrower and it goes a bit deeper on the wood block.
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Hikari. Last edited by HikariGuitars; 10-04-2015 at 09:29 AM. Reason: Did a google search. |
#27
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Thanks. That is an appropriate option for a steel string guitar.
Later, you might want to consider bolt-on arrangements that allow for changing the neck angle as necessary. Nylon string guitars rarely require neck resets, but steel string guitars often do. |