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Old 02-18-2018, 08:03 AM
milehimagic milehimagic is offline
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Default Played the new Taylor V Braced....

I had the opportunity to play the new V Class Bracing guitars a few nights ago in Denver. Taylor had a new product showing at the Denver Folklore Center. The place was jammed, maybe about 50 people and it was so crowded, people were standing in the doorway. As you would expect from a Taylor rep, very polished, knew his stuff and was a decent player.

During the intro statements, the rep made some very interesting comments:

He made a unique comment in that when he took the new 914ce home and started playing it he noticed that unlike a normal rosewood back and side instrument, this 914 didn't have the normal midrange "swoop." I found that interesting in that I thought that is why you choose different tone woods. Strange but true.

Secondly and most importantly, he made the direct statement that by the end of 2018 all GA's from the 300 series up will have the new V bracing.

How do they sound.....first let me state, I play a 214ce, love it and love Taylor. That's the good news, now the bad news, me and many of the attendees were somewhat/very disappointed.

Before we had the chance to personally play the instruments, one of the attendees asked the rep to play an 814ce DLX to compare it to the 914ce V Braced he had with him. Although the 914ce was noticeably louder (strumming??). the 814ce DLX was much much clearer and articulate. Truly the "Taylor Sound" we have grown to enjoy over the years. Sorry for the poor layperson descriptor but that's the best way I can describe it. Now to the reps defense, he didn't want to do it the comparison, up to and including asking the audience if the wanted him to do it, and was kind of forced into it. Mistake..... I think the most telling comment of the evening was after the rep did the comparison and asked (and I am paraphrasing) "what did you think?" and the only response was from a woman in the front row who said, "it was louder."

Given the large number of attendees, you could only audition the instruments for a few moments and as much as it pains me to say it, I think that Taylor has really missed the mark. With that being said, some people thought they sounded really good. Bottom line, we all have different tastes. I like vanilla and you may like chocolate.....nothing wrong either way!

I went into this process looking for a new guitar...I think I found it, the 814ce DLX.....before they change to the new V bracing.,

Last edited by milehimagic; 02-20-2018 at 09:30 AM. Reason: grammer
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Old 02-18-2018, 10:16 AM
Glennwillow Glennwillow is offline
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Interesting comments! Thank you!

And welcome to the AGF! I hope you like it here!

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Old 02-18-2018, 10:41 AM
leew3 leew3 is offline
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Welcome to the AGF and thank you for the helpful live review of the new bracing pattern.

I'm surprised no one else on the AGF has expressed any opinions about this bracing pattern yet.....
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Old 02-18-2018, 11:45 AM
Rmz76 Rmz76 is offline
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Good to be getting first hand feedback on these new instruments, seems a lot the in person experience reviews are telling me what I would expect to hear based on what I was hearing in the composite of demo videos on-line.

Seems the new V-Class bracing is something new that may work for some players, but not necessary superior and some will be turned off by the tonal compromises for increased volume/sustain. John from Shoreline Music confirmed that even if a player wanted to order a new 914ce with traditional X bracing as a custom build, this is no longer an option. So I think we can assume Taylor's ambition at this point is to completely phase out traditional X-bracing. If that is the case, that's probably a decision driven entirely by cost. I think they are making a mistake. Consider what Waterloo is doing on some models offering traditional X bracing and Ladder bracing as an option.

Taylor has made it clear that they want to be about innovation. Over the past decade we've seen each of their series redesigned by Andy Powers. Each year at NAMM a new leap forward announcement. Last year it was all about the Academy series and their marketing positioned these instruments in a way that made them out to be a lot more than they are. That's what marketing and advertising departments do, but that also started this trend of Andy Power's involvement in pushing the product. I'm not a fan of this approach and I think it's distasteful.

This year with the pre-announcement, the official announcement slipping out the day before planned and then over eight hours of live NAMM broadcast on Facebook showcasing the new instruments (many of those performances showcasing the tonal shortcomings/trade offs for increased volume and sustain to my ears in my opinion), It seems every year Taylor now must present some new innovation and every year they must top what they did the year before in terms of the grandiose presentation. I think the expectations they have sent with this pattern is going to backfire. It's a pattern that works well for technology products like Smart Phones, because in that market it's all about innovation. Acoustic guitars are largely about tradition. Even if a company were to make a huge breakthrough (at this point I do not think V-Class bracing delivers the breakthrough it claims) at best they would be setting a new tradition that would be established for many, many years to come. Not one they would have to top the next year at NAMM. This is the pitfall of creating a trend of over the top marketing on a product that is inherently traditional like an acoustic guitar.

Meanwhile our favorite builders are left shaking their heads in the shadows. I watched a video of Chris Martin's presentation and I recall him having an honest talk about the new reimagined Martin Standard lineup for 2018. One of the things he said was "we wanted to give our dealers something new because sales have flatlined". That's just a very honest to the point explanation of the reason for the change. He left it up to the product to speak for itself to the customer. I see a lot more integrity in that approach.

There's a lot of praise for Andy Powers on this board and I guess that's what we're all suppose to do, but it's kind of sad. I think more people know who Andy Powers is than know who George Lowden is. One of these men best known for improving the massed produced, best selling guitar brand. Perhaps the In & Out burger of the guitar industry, a good meal at a good price but it is what it is. The other a builder of some of the finest instruments I've ever heard, analogous to Michelin rated Five star cuisine
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Last edited by Rmz76; 02-18-2018 at 11:59 AM.
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:00 PM
AHill AHill is offline
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Were you hearing the guitar amplified or unplugged? I'm assuming unplugged, given one of the comments was it was louder.

You are not the first to hear it up close and personal and come away unimpressed. Yet, somehow, Taylor has decided it's their future on it - so much so that they plan to incorporate V-bracing on a pretty substantial portion of their product line. How is it that so many listeners come away unimpressed, but Taylor thinks it's the best thing since sliced bread. I don't buy that Andy Powers could have single-handedly convinced Bob Taylor it's better. They would have had to audition and compare the new ones against the old ones to make an informed decision. Or maybe they didn't.

I don't like the way this is playing out (pun intended). At least if they find it's a flop, they have a fallback plan (the older design).
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Old 02-18-2018, 12:02 PM
JohnW63 JohnW63 is offline
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If a previous posters remarks about what HE heard and the Taylor rep said, Taylor has been working on this bracing for 5 years and doing lots of testing. IO don't think it was put out just to stimulate sales with the NEW thing of the year. Changing the bracing is not something any guitar maker would do without a very good reason.

If I ever get a chance to play one of their new braced guitar, I am not going to worry about what things sounded like before or what other brands it might sound like. I'm going to decide if I like the guitar in my hand at that moment or not.

Taylors are not like a Martin that must sound like everyone remembers a Martin sounding like. They have changed over the years and continue trying to improve. It's not like their changes have hurt their sales figures. They sell more than anyone.
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Old 02-18-2018, 02:26 PM
mrgraveline mrgraveline is offline
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I just think the people are going to largely hear what they want to hear in these early days...

The amount of people all of a sudden concerned with the way Taylor "markets" is kinda silly. I think Martin has done the same stuff with all the talk a few years back about how they can dial in the age of the guitar by how they torrefied the tops... uh huh.. ok...

I am dying to play these. I like Taylor.. I am thrilled someone in acoustic guitars is pushing the envelope... spending the money/time/energy to be better than they were yesterday (or at least try). I have my J45. I have had my Martins... they are/were great. There are plenty in the world. What's next?
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:25 PM
KarenB KarenB is offline
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In the latest issue of "Wood & Steel" (Taylor's magazine), it talks in detail that the V bracing gives the guitar better intonation.
"V-Class bracing makes the top more in tune with the vibrating strings. This eliminates much of the interference that causes some notes to waver and sound slightly out of tune. As a result, notes and chords played anywhere on the neck are more consistent and in tune with each other."
The author goes into a lot more detail about this. Milehimagic--did it sound noticebly better intonated to you?
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:28 PM
SpruceTop SpruceTop is offline
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Having never played a guitar so equipped, but reading the feedback, likely the new Taylor V-Class bracing is just a different sound of good--which ain't good or bad but is just is ...
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Old 02-18-2018, 05:55 PM
Rmz76 Rmz76 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mrgraveline View Post
I just think the people are going to largely hear what they want to hear in these early days...

The amount of people all of a sudden concerned with the way Taylor "markets" is kinda silly. I think Martin has done the same stuff with all the talk a few years back about how they can dial in the age of the guitar by how they torrefied the tops... uh huh.. ok...
"dial in the age of a guitar" is a bit too specific to not be marketing speak... But the industry has largely followed with torrified tops on vintage inspired models. Gibson torrifies all their J-45 Vintage, Hummingbird Vintage, etc... Martin continues to torrify all their Authentic line... But not every guitar Martin builds has a torrified top, because Martin seems to have always understood that the tone qualities torrification produces are subjective and not for everyone. Taylor's marketing is pretty clear in their vision that V-Class bracing is far superior to anything before and their planned actions for 2018 are backing that up. Also Martin never claimed to have "reinvented the acoustic guitar" with torrification as Taylor has gone so far as to say and at these shows, apparently Taylor reps are now telling potential buyers that the entire lineup 300 series and up will have V-Class bracing by end of the year.

It's an aggressive and brazen move to not even wait to see how the market reacts to the first few models featuring V-Class bracing, to be so bold to have your reps at road shows telling the audience the entire lineup is already slated to change. Is there any stronger way Taylor could communicate to their potential customers that they do not care how they feel about this fundamental change to acoustic guitar design? I guess a bigger question is should they care at all? Maybe not, but maybe...

Will they continue to offer X-bracing as an option? They aren't on the 914ce or any of the first V-Class braced models introduced. This is their direction and their stance is clear. They are essentially saying "X-bracing is a thing of the past, V-Class bracing the way forward and we're betting the company on it". Entirely different than what Martin did with trorrification, but if you see it that way to each his own, I guess.

This dead horse is going to keep getting beat over the next several months as more and more players put hands on them and form opinions and report from road shows what Taylor reps are saying.
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Last edited by Rmz76; 02-18-2018 at 06:03 PM.
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Old 02-18-2018, 06:07 PM
zmf zmf is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AHill View Post

I don't like the way this is playing out (pun intended). At least if they find it's a flop, they have a fallback plan (the older design).
Good comments here.

Not sure if having a fallback is enough to cover potential damage. It's expected that the PR boys are going to do what they can to sell the product, but when one of them is Andy Powers, the head luthier and future face of Taylor, there will be a credibility issue to deal with if the new bracing doesn't match the hype.

Or in other words, you can only cry "wolf" so many times before people ignore you.
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Old 02-18-2018, 07:57 PM
Picker2 Picker2 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Antaren View Post
In the latest issue of "Wood & Steel" (Taylor's magazine), it talks in detail that the V bracing gives the guitar better intonation.
"V-Class bracing makes the top more in tune with the vibrating strings. This eliminates much of the interference that causes some notes to waver and sound slightly out of tune. As a result, notes and chords played anywhere on the neck are more consistent and in tune with each other."
The author goes into a lot more detail about this. Milehimagic--did it sound noticebly better intonated to you?
I have never played a V-braced Taylor yet, but I don’t need to in order to answer this question for you.

The argument about top resonance comes from the cello world. Because a cello bow feeds ‘white noise’ into both the string and the body, it will generate two tones with slightly different frequencies that last as long as you move the bow. It sounds like a honky-tonk piano.

In a guitar body this hardly happens, because strings are plucked and not bowed. The pluck may excite a resonant frequency in the body, but this one will decay very fast. The string will ring out much longer, so there is no ‘fight’ or ‘disbalance’.

In addition, even if Taylor’s story about V-bracing did make sense, it would only work if the guitar were perfectly tuned to exactly concert pitch, and very carefully played. But the mere concept of playing a guitar like a human and not like a robot, assures that any ‘balance’ between the top and the string will be disrupted as soon as you press a string sideways a little, fret it a tad harder, or drag it up or down. Which is what I do all the time, and which makes me sound like me!

To me it seems Andy made some rumors from the cello world, which he did not quite understand in detail (or he would have explained it better) and cooked it into a blend of pseudo science and marketing. Funny to see how many folks buy his story - in that sense he is a genius indeed.

I’m sure the guitars are fabulous. But the concept of V-bracing versus intonation does not make sense, based on fundamental principles.
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Old 02-18-2018, 08:44 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Rmz76 View Post
Acoustic guitars are largely about tradition.
Meh. How many slightly different copies of 80-year-old guitars do we really need? Authentic, vintage, reissue, classic, traditional, etc ad infinitum. There's so much more that can be done with wood, steel, and carbon fiber than rehashes of past models.

I'm glad some companies are trying new things at scale.
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:25 PM
zmf zmf is offline
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Meh.
I'm glad some companies are trying new things at scale.
What would you like to see in the way of innovation?

I plan to spend part of this year seeking out CF guitars. Need one for road trips. To me, CF is new. Might not like them.

What would be new to you? Why would you need it?

Do we need reinterpretations of pianos and flutes? A better drum?
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Old 02-18-2018, 09:26 PM
ii Cybershot ii ii Cybershot ii is offline
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Originally Posted by SpruceTop View Post
Having never played a guitar so equipped, but reading the feedback, likely the new Taylor V-Class bracing is just a different sound of good--which ain't good or bad but is just is ...
Exactly this.

I think it's a good thing, because what Taylor would want you to believe that V-class made your old guitar obsolete.

But nope, it's just a slightly new sound/style for Taylor, and personally I found them to be great.

So rest easy everyone, your X-braced guitars are safe!

Last edited by ii Cybershot ii; 02-18-2018 at 09:38 PM.
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