Some Tips on Practicing Scales

[BigMoney]

I was working on scalar related exercises and figured I would share them with the forum in case anyone was interested.

Take a C Major scale for example. You learn it ascending and descending in interval of seconds. This is fine and dandy but there is no point in practicing scales like this forever because it will eventually become a waste of time. When you practice something you already know, you aren't really practicing. You wouldn't sit down and practice an open G chord for 30 minutes would you? You already know how to do that so you wouldn't be learning anything from mindlessly playing it for that amount of time. The same principle applies to scales.

To get around this, you can practice scales using:

Different intervals such as 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6th, and finally 7ths.
Practicing them on 1 string, then 2 strings, etc.
Practicing them in triads/arpeggios - The C Major scale would be a Cmaj arpeggio, then a D minor, E minor, F Major, etc.
Practicing the scales while simultaneously saying/singing the note you're playing (harder than it sounds)

If one employs all these methods to each mode and each key they become a wizard. Anyone find these tips useful?

Cheers

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BigMoney

Take a C Major scale for example. You learn it ascending and descending in interval of seconds. This is fine and dandy but there is no point in practicing scales like this forever because it will eventually become a waste of time.

That depends upon how you practice them and for what purpose.

Many classical guitarists practice scales every day. They do so because it is a primary vehicle for practicing right hand (plucking) technique that is a large part of what gives them the sound they produce. They are typically practiced with "rest" stroke and "free" stroke. They can be practiced staccato and legato as wells as very slowly or very quickly, teaching one speed.

Segovia's set of scales cover the entire range of the instrument from lowest to highest frets. Practicing those teaches one to play in all positions, especially in the upper frets, and how to smoothly - and quietly - change positions.

They are what you put into them.

There is certainly nothing wrong with practicing triads, 3rds, etc. as you suggest, but one shouldn't dismiss the value of practicing scales: there is a reason that scales are practiced as part of learning and maintaining the playing of most instruments.

[BrunoBlack]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

That depends upon how you practice them...

Segovia's set of scales cover the entire range of the instrument from lowest to highest frets. Practicing those teaches one to play in all positions, especially in the upper frets, and how to smoothly - and quietly - change positions.

They are what you put into them.

Here is one of my regular practice scales that I believe is one of Sergovia's

[SunnyDee]

I always find it interesting that classical players seem to usually practice scales shifting up and down the fretboard making 2 octaves spread over 8 frets or so, while non-classical players practice vertically in a 4 fret wide box. I started out just instinctively playing the classical way, and only after a year or so did I realize that players of other styles were doing something different. Anyone have insight on reasons/efficacy for this difference?

[Von Beerhofen]

playing in the 4 fret wide box won't allow you to go higher then the 4th fret on the high E and you need to move to a new position altogether in order to keep playing higher notes. It's very usefull for playing melody on top of chords as it's reasonably easy to pick a note in the same position which matches the chord's scale.

Personally I usually begin with a shift from a low note to the next position and then do the same on the next string etc. but from the highest played note so the next string can be played with my indexfinger in a higher position then before, this allows me to use the entire fingerboard for scales and arpeggios.

It needs a slow approach so you learn to 'hear' the note which will be next. It's useless for me to try and memorise patterns but they can be usefull to start learning how it works best. It's often trial and error when I study things like that, but over time I've gotten better at it even though I still suck.

In improvisations I often go back to the 4 fret wide scales as I've practiced those since I started but combining the two at will has improved my melodic phrasing a lot.

Ludwig

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Von Beerhofen

playing in the 4 fret wide box won't allow you to go higher then the 4th fret on the high E and you need to move to a new position altogether on order to keep playing higher notes.

Personally I usually begin with a shift from a low note to the next position and then do the same on the next string etc. but from the highest played note so the next string can be played with my indexfinger in a higher position then before, this allows me to use the entire fingerboard for scales and arpeggios.

It needs a slow approach so you learn to 'hear' the note which will be next. It's useless for me to try and memorise patterns but they can be usefull to start learning how it works best. It's often trial and error when I study things like that, but over time I've gotten better at it even though I still suck.

In improvisations I often go back to the 4 fret wide scales as I've practiced those since I started but combining the two at will has improved my melodic phrasing a lot.

Ludwig

Interesting. How people do this and why interests me. I don't memorize any patterns like that, rather, I know how to make intervals on the fretboard and I know the intervals of the scales. To me it doesn't matter where I am on the fretboard (position) or which finger I'm playing or in which key. The scale's intervals are always the same so I move about freely, just keeping up with where I am in the scale (the scale degree). I learned this way specifically to allow me to improvise easily. There's no trial and error or needing to hear the next note in order to find it this way. You might find it helpful.

[Von Beerhofen]

I've used that technique most of my life but found that it could become awkward when I had to jump up 5 positions, much like I used to do when I was barring chords, to play notes higher then the position allowed.

I don't know how I came about to do it like this, I think it came from doing wide arpeggios in various keys and it felt awkward to jump to various positions. Must have been after watching Jerry's version of Pachelbel's Canon in D Major and seeing other hardrock guitarists moving effortlessly and smoothly through their arpeggio's over a range of 3 octaves.

It became something I wanted to learn too, besides the technique you describe.

Ludwig

[BigMoney]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

That depends upon how you practice them and for what purpose.

Many classical guitarists practice scales every day. They do so because it is a primary vehicle for practicing right hand (plucking) technique that is a large part of what gives them the sound they produce. They are typically practiced with "rest" stroke and "free" stroke. They can be practiced staccato and legato as wells as very slowly or very quickly, teaching one speed.

Segovia's set of scales cover the entire range of the instrument from lowest to highest frets. Practicing those teaches one to play in all positions, especially in the upper frets, and how to smoothly - and quietly - change positions.

They are what you put into them.

There is certainly nothing wrong with practicing triads, 3rds, etc. as you suggest, but one shouldn't dismiss the value of practicing scales: there is a reason that scales are practiced as part of learning and maintaining the playing of most instruments.

Speed and right hand technique sure. That's a different ball game. Practicing in 2nds is great for that. That's not really a left hand thing. I agree as well that playing in different positions in beneficial.

I was considering when guitarists stay in the same position. Practicing only 2nds in that manner becomes redundant after they're memorized. I'm not dismissing the value of playing scales, I'm just saying that if you already have something learned perfectly, you're no longer benefitting from continuing to practice that same thing. At that point you're just exercising.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by BigMoney

To get around this, you can practice scales using:

Different intervals such as 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6th, and finally 7ths.

I've seen this suggestion before, but I'm not sure I know what it means, exactly, what the thinking behind it would be, what you'd be learning/practicing. I'm not disagreeing, it seems like a good idea, I just want to understand what it is that we are doing with it. Questions that confuse me are...Once you are playing a different pattern of intervals, you're actually playing a different scale in a sense, aren't you? Or...If you're thinking of it as the major scale and, say, playing it in 4ths, then this is an exercise in knowing where the notes are, maybe? Or couldn't it also be an exercise in just playing intervals of 4ths? Or maybe this doesn't mean play 4ths, maybe it means play scale degrees counting by 4? Yeah... clearly I don't know what this means.

Could you explain it for me?

[mattbn73]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

I've seen this suggestion before, but I'm not sure I know what it means, exactly, what the thinking behind it would be, what you'd be learning/practicing. I'm not disagreeing, it seems like a good idea, I just want to understand what it is that we are doing with it. Questions that confuse me are...Once you are playing a different pattern of intervals, you're actually playing a different scale in a sense, aren't you? Or...If you're thinking of it as the major scale and, say, playing it in 4ths, then this is an exercise in knowing where the notes are, maybe? Or couldn't it also be an exercise in just playing intervals of 4ths? Or maybe this doesn't mean play 4ths, maybe it means play scale degrees counting by 4? Yeah... clearly I don't know what this means.

Could you explain it for me?

3rds would be something like CE,DF,EG or EC, DF, GE. For me, these kind of exercises aren't purely technical but also ear training. Connections between ears/fingers. Thirds are almost mandatory. They are an important part of the essential DNA for improv in bluegrass, jazz and other styles.

If you're only practicing scales up and down in 2nds, you're missing it.

[Wyllys]

Practice as musical calisthenics has many benefits, not the least of which is strengthening the ear/hand connections and the ability to consciously participate in their interaction IN THE MOMENT.

My favorite intervals to use in playing and in just "working out" are thirds, sixths and tenths...basically all the same but with different "stretch". Here are tenths in C, first position:

0 x x 0 x x
1 x x 2 x x
3 x x x 0 x
x 0 x x 1 x
x 2 x x 3 x
x 3 x x x 0
x x 0 x x 1
x x 2 x x 3

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by mattbn73

3rds would be something like CE,DF,EG or EC, DF, GE. For me, these kind of exercises aren't purely technical but also ear training. Connections between ears/fingers. Thirds are almost mandatory. They are an important part of the essential DNA for improv in bluegrass, jazz and other styles.

If you're only practicing scales up and down in 2nds, you're missing it.

Thanks, that's helpful, because that's not what I thought was being described. To me, that's practicing playing thirds, not practicing playing the scale pattern "in thirds". That would be learning/practicing where the major and minor thirds are in that scale and how they are formed on the fretboard. That's what I was describing as how I play for improvisation, anyway.

[Wyllys]

Originally Posted by SunnyDee

Thanks, that's helpful, because that's not what I thought was being described. To me, that's practicing playing thirds, not practicing playing the scale pattern "in thirds". That would be learning/practicing where the major and minor thirds are in that scale and how they are formed on the fretboard. That's what I was describing as how I play for improvisation, anyway.

You can practice moving pairs as I posted regarding tenths above or you can "walk" the intervals, thirds being:

c e d f e g f a g b a C b d C : C a b g a f g e f d e c d b c

You can do the same with any intervals or patterns. Making up your own excercises based on your needs is a good excercise, musically speaking.

c e g b C a f d e g b D E C a f etc

Making up your own rather than following a book or "otherly conceived" excercises engages your facilities and abilities in a more essential way.

[SunnyDee]

Originally Posted by Wyllys

You can practice moving pairs as I posted regarding tenths above or you can "walk" the intervals, thirds being:

c e d f e g f a g b a c b d c : c a b g a f g e f d e c d b c

You can do the same with any intervals or patterns. Making up your own excercises based on your needs is a good excercise, musically speaking.

Oh, totally, I'm making all this up myself, anyway!
This is what I've been doing, I just didn't understand the way people were describing it.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by BigMoney

I was working on scalar related exercises and figured I would share them with the forum in case anyone was interested.

Take a C Major scale for example. You learn it ascending and descending in interval of seconds. This is fine and dandy but there is no point in practicing scales like this forever because it will eventually become a waste of time. When you practice something you already know, you aren't really practicing. You wouldn't sit down and practice an open G chord for 30 minutes would you? You already know how to do that so you wouldn't be learning anything from mindlessly playing it for that amount of time. The same principle applies to scales.

To get around this, you can practice scales using:

Different intervals such as 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, 6th, and finally 7ths.
Practicing them on 1 string, then 2 strings, etc.
Practicing them in triads/arpeggios - The C Major scale would be a Cmaj arpeggio, then a D minor, E minor, F Major, etc.
Practicing the scales while simultaneously saying/singing the note you're playing (harder than it sounds)

If one employs all these methods to each mode and each key they become a wizard. Anyone find these tips useful?

Cheers

Yes. Even better than this - or the next stage in the process if you like - is to use melodic patterns: repeated interval structures (other than triads), such as 1-2-3, 2-3-4, 3-4-5...(as a very simple example). There's an infinite variety of these, and hey inspire melodic invention, throwing up all kinds of licks you can use when soloing.

This is an introduction to the concept:
https://www.justinguitar.com/en/IM-1...icPatterns.php

more here:
http://www.guitarworld.com/scale-seq...ur-solos/25194

As Wyllys says, once you get the concept, you can make up your own.

Once you've worked through a few dozen of those, you can vary the note values.
I.e., do you practice scales in 8ths, 16ths or triplets all the way? Stop! You've done enough of that already! Play the patterns as an 8th and two 16ths, 3 8ths and 2 16ths, an 8th and 6 16ths, in quarters 8ths and 16ths mixed....
Soon enough, you find yourself actually making music.

Here's a good one you'll recognise from a Xmas carol (G major scale 7th position, descending from the 5th - dotted quarter followed by five 8ths):

-|10---8-7-8-10-7-|8---7----7-8---|7----------7--|---
-|----------------|------10-----10|---10-8-10---8|10-....
-|----------------|---------------|--------------|---
-|----------------|---------------|--------------|---
-|----------------|---------------|--------------|---
-|----------------|---------------|--------------|---

You can work the rest out for yourself (carry it all the way down to 6th string). Then work out an ascending version...