Favorite M-S pattern Mic Combo's?

alohachris · #1 06-24-2010, 09:30 PM

Aloha Friends,

I'm just curious about the mic combinations you like to use for M-S miking patterns on acoustic guitars?

Any interesting S/D - L/D combos used? Any phasing or logistical difficulties with such a combo? Which brands?

While you're at it, do you have any favorite figure 8 mics you're using?

Any sound samples of M-S on guitar to share?

Sdelsolray, do you use M-S at all or mainly S/D pairs?

Are there any special room treatment considerations for using M-S?

Does anyone know of a figure 8 capsule that could be adapted to AKG's 451/460 or 480 series of mics? Their CK94 fig 8 only fits the lesser blue line series. Any modders you know of who could do that kind of adaptation?

I really like my Mojave MA-200 L/D. But it's only cardioid and I have nothing but hyper and cardioid mics and caps among my S/D's and NO Figure 8. Any solutions - reasonably priced - to fix this predicament? I mean, I could get something like a CAD 179 variable pattern, but how would that sound with my much better S/D mics for M-S? Perhaps a used 4050?

I have these great CMC641's, but the Schoeps CK8 fig 8 cap is priced at way over $1K, but that's a big "NO WAY, ALOHA!" for the next few months.

I'd just like to play with M-S more. The many samples I've heard (thanks Doug & Fran & others I've found) really have me really liking the result of that pattern, assuming the rest of the chain and treatment are up to snuff - and I'm getting there, albeit slowly with both the equipment and knowledge of how to use it.

Lots of questions. I'll leave it up to you, my friendly mic experts here for your sage perspectives on this new twist in my recording road. It's a great relief to know you're here.

NOTE: The 'Electrified' crowd, with a few exceptions, seems decidedly anti-microphone for any application, which puzzles me. How can they be so lazy (the only reason I can think of) as to not explore the live miking options beyond the crappy, IMO, Lloyd Baggs products, mediocre Fishman's, modellers and all those Un-Acoustic sounds they create using just one pickup? They are truly anti-mic biggots over there. I try to stir 'em up, but I can feel the resentment. They didn't even really check out the new K&K or DPA clip-on's that much. Glad you folks are here. Enough whining already. I Pau! - alohachris -

Mahalo a nui,
alohachris

PS: I wish AKG had a fig 8 capsule or way to adapt my modded 460's so I could play with it. Any thoughts?- alohachris

Doug Young · #2 06-25-2010, 11:12 AM

I think you could try a lesser mic for the side mic. It would probably work fine. The mid mic is picking up the main sound, so it's more a question of how the mics interact. As Fran's many tests show, the differences in mics are subtle. On the other hand, getting an Mk8 capsule is the most cost-effective route (not the cheapest, but best cost/quality ratio) with what you currently have. Cheap figure 8 mics are hard to find. There are some low cost ribbons out there these days that might be worth a try.

runamuck · #3 06-25-2010, 05:25 PM

I use a Shure KSM 32 or an Audio Technica 4051 (a bit brighter) for mid and a Fathead Ribbon for bi-directional and love the sound.

Jim McCarthy

KevWind · #4 06-26-2010, 06:58 AM

So right now I am not home so I'll have wait to find out but now my setup Will be a Schoeps CMC6-4 and a Brauner Phantom V for any Mid Side.

hey Jim PM or e-mail me about how HRBC went. Kevin

ljguitar · #5 06-26-2010, 09:58 AM

Hi Chris (& others)…
I’ve used a pair of AKG 414 for the center mic, and side mic in both the Figure 8 plus side/cardioid configuration, and then I’ve also recorded a live bluegrass group with a very lively crowd with both mics in the figure 8 position (still tip to tip mid/side).

The dual figure 8 configuration really produced some very natural recordings and it was a group which was used to working a single mic (choreographed well), so in the recordings you could hear/feel the players moving in/out of position as they soloed...and it picked up the audience's interaction with them amazingly well...

I’ve also used (in studio) Figure 8 front/back and large diaphragm side for an acoustic duo that made some pretty nice binaural recordings which sounded very natural under headphones.

And I’ve paired my Shure KSM-44 with an AKG 414 in traditional mid/side fashion and it was a great pairing. I really feel the strength of mid/side may not rest solely in the hands of the quality of the mics. The engineering has a lot to do with the success of it.

It's a great way to capture spontaneous or hyperactive musicians who move around a lot...

Fran Guidry · #6 06-26-2010, 10:35 AM

I might mention that mid-side used with a cardioid mid is mathematically the same as a cardioid X-Y pair. Different mid mics result in different mathematical models.

And that the original mid-side was an array of two figure 8 ribbon mics, invented by Alan Blumlein who also invented two channel stereo.

And that any stereo recording can be converted to mid-side and back again in a DAW.

Fran

alohachris · #7 06-27-2010, 02:17 PM

Aloha Friends,

Thank you for your suggestions and the many little things I can't pick up from the literature about M-S miking and successful mic pairings.

I have a chance to buy an almost new AEA R84 L/D Ribbon mic in mint condition for around $750. I wanted to know what your experiences have been in using that mic as the "Side" in combo with an S/D hyper or cardioid mic such as a CMC641 or AKG 460 for the "Mid?" How bout with using it with another L/D (logistics?)?

Sdelsolray and Doug own that combination. Perhaps they could chime in here.

Larry, you're right about the 414. Such a useful mic. May be THE desert island mic, right? Thanks.

Fran, I'd be interested in hearing how you can get the M-S effect in the recording process.

Happy Sunday to you all from the Islands. Mahalo for your help/

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

Doug Young · #8 06-27-2010, 06:05 PM

I'm out of town right now, so I can't create any demos, the aea should work, and that's anice mic, so it could be useful in general. It's a big mic, which will be a bit different than using two tiny pencil mica. Might be great, just different. I actually have the r88 not the 84 and it s reall huge.

As far as doing ms without ms mica, thre are lots of plugins that do this. Use voxengo and just set it to inline. That will convert any stereo track to ms. Then you can do the widening or narrowing, in ms-land. Logic's stereo tool does this as well. The only thing i'd say about this is that, as fran say's the math is all equivalent, in pratice I get a certain centered sound out of ms that I never get from xy. My imagination? My failure to setup xy accurately? Maybe something about being very close to the source? Don't know, but to me the results are a bit diiferent, in spite of the math :-)

Doug Young · #9 06-27-2010, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm out of town right now, so I can't create any demos, the aea should work, and that's anice mic, so it could be useful in general. It's a big mic, which will be a bit different than using two tiny pencil mica. Might be great, just different. I actually have the r88 not the 84 and it s reall huge.

As far as doing ms without ms mics, thre are lots of plugins that do this. Use voxengo and just set it to inline. That will convert any stereo track to ms. Then you can do the widening or narrowing, in ms-land. Logic's stereo tool does this as well. The only thing i'd say about this is that, as fran say's the math is all equivalent, in pratice I get a certain centered sound out of ms that I never get from xy. My imagination? My failure to setup xy accurately? Maybe something about being very close to the source? Don't know, but to me the results are a bit diiferent, in spite of the math :-)

excuse the typos- I'm on my iPhone