Big guitar manufacturers and carbon fiber

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by jonfields45

For something to be mass market....the masses have got to want one :~).

..and they have to be able to afford it.

A story I like to tell every time this is discussed here, is when a top guy from one of the big brand names was visiting our store, and given that we sell more CF guitar than any other dealer out there, the subject of what sells the guitars is bound to come up. After discussing the guitars for a while, he pointed at one of the Rainsongs on the wall and told me that that same guitar would have to sell for $4000 with their logo on the head stock.

Now I don't know how much thought that company gave CF guitars, but I get the feeling they are not done thinking about it.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by zeeway

My Emerald X-20 is quite flat on the soundboard...and it sounds great.

I did not mean to imply that one of the three major CF brands had the best approach, just that they are different. We are in the CF stage where wood acoustic guitars were 100 years ago; biscuit resonators, spider resonators, giant acoustics out of Chicago, X braced arch tops, tone bar arch tops, gut strings, metal strings, harp guitars....

Today an acoustic guitar is largely derived from a Martin OM or Dreadnought (which is a mixture of top thickness, bracing, and arching, but all wood). An electric guitar has dual or single coil pickups, bolted or glued neck, trem or not, but it's a formula too.

The CF formula does not yet exist.

[Long Jon]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

..and they have to be able to afford it.

A story I like to tell every time this is discussed here, is when a top guy from one of the big brand names was visiting our store, and given that we sell more CF guitar than any other dealer out there, the subject of what sells the guitars is bound to come up. After discussing the guitars for a while, he pointed at one of the Rainsongs on the wall and told me that

that same guitar would have to sell for $4000 with their logo on the head stock.

Now I don't know how much thought that company gave CF guitars, but I get the feeling they are not done thinking about it.

Wow !

You heard it from Ted first !

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Long Jon

Wow !

You heard it from Ted first !

I heard an interview with Bob Taylor where he said that Taylor would never be in the "composite such as carbon fiber" business - Taylor is in the wood guitar business.

Too much "history and tradition" for the Big 3, I would imagine. But any wood manufacturer looking at CF would have to consider that the guitars are made one at a time... hard to get the economy of scale when they aren't making 50 necks at a time.

From my perspective, other than giving Long Jon fodder for "fake news," the carbon fiber manufacturers are taking "the next step" in guitar development: shape and form factor that doesn't have to be like what the wood manufacturers are producing.

Certainly different from: "Hey look - we're using hide glue again!"

[Long Jon]

Jim , I may be a bit of a fake news hound. BUT ,,, NOBODY has EVER said "hide glue" here,,, 'til now.

I actually shuddered ....

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Long Jon

Jim , I may be a bit of a fake news hound. BUT ,,, NOBODY has EVER said "hide glue" here,,, 'til now.

I actually shuddered ....

I was referring to putting the glue where no one would find it.

[Long Jon]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

I was referring to putting the glue where no one would find it.

That still makes me shudder !

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Long Jon

That still makes me shudder !

Sometimes it helps to talk about these things. I am here to help. Let's start with: "So, what'd ya order from Emerald?"

[M Hayden]

Originally Posted by EvanB

Jonf;

I am with you; where are cf electric guitars? Alistair has made a few, but, as yet, we do not have an iconic CF electric. Well, other than the one that Alistair is now making. I'm waiting with bated breath.

Modulus made CF electrics for years, and they were uniformly pretty amazing. And there are the Steinberger initial series as well, which are unorthodox but classic.

[Fixedgear60]

Great thread.... I would guess that CF is a disruptive technology for this industry and if you look at Martin.. they have been working with engineered wood (laminates) woods just like the construction industries. I got to believe CF and the work that Joe is doing at BB is on their radar. I would guess wood in the futire will be more decorative like what emerald is doing or reserved only for the high end of the business...and customizations.

Will be fun to watch and see the acquisitions. I am in the software business and once the first acquisition is made by a major player the rest will follow suit quickly.

[zeeway]

Re CF electrics....The main "art" in an acoustic is in the body, with the braces, materials, soundboard, etc. Electric guitars have a solid chunk of wood for a body. So the advantage of CF for an electric is no where near that for acoustics. So I would not think CF electric would be an advance in terms of ease of manufacturing.

[Long Jon]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

Sometimes it helps to talk about these things. I am here to help. Let's start with: "So, what'd ya order from Emerald?"

Something beginning with "X" .....

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Long Jon

Something beginning with "X" .....

Sooo... you're saying it isn't a Chimaera? Now, we're making progress. Let's go with another question: how many frets does it have?

[MiG50]

Originally Posted by zeeway

Re CF electrics....The main "art" in an acoustic is in the body, with the braces, materials, soundboard, etc. Electric guitars have a solid chunk of wood for a body. So the advantage of CF for an electric is no where near that for acoustics. So I would not think CF electric would be an advance in terms of ease of manufacturing.

The one place I could see carbon fiber being used on an electric guitar is the neck. Saves weight, resists warping, takes the most advantage of CF's strengths. If someone developed a standard four-bolt Fender-style neck, I think they could move some product.

Otherwise, I could see someone making jazz boxes, semi-hollows (with a wood core), or just putting a CF cap on a solid-body.

[jonfields45]

Originally Posted by MiG50

The one place I could see carbon fiber being used on an electric guitar is the neck. Saves weight, resists warping, takes the most advantage of CF's strengths. If someone developed a standard four-bolt Fender-style neck, I think they could move some product.

http://mosesgraphite.com/products/el...ar-bass-necks/

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/acces...=moses&index=1

I'm not excited about having to install inserts to bolt it on...