How many 0s is a Manzer wedge worth in shoulder comfort?

JohnnyDes · #1 03-10-2014, 10:11 AM

I'm reposting this question here after a quick thread death in the main forum.

Due to ongoing comfort/pain issues, I'm considering looking into a Manzer wedge. If so, I wonder could I actually move up in guitar size?

If I'm more-or-less comfortable with a 00-sized guitar, would I find the same comfort in a Manzer-wedged 000?

[Edit: Just to be clear my question is whether a 000 with a Manzer wedge would have the same comfort as a 00 without a Manzer wedge]

JD

jgillard · #2 03-10-2014, 10:14 AM

I would say no. The depth between 00 and 000 is the same. (at least considering martin body sizing)

00 - Body Depth 4 1/8"
000 - Body Depth 4 1/8"

So, I can't see how the manzer wedge would help with discomfort of a 000 since you are already comfortable with that depth.

El Conquistador · #3 03-10-2014, 10:22 AM

I had to go to a 00 with a Manzer wedge for my working guitar in order to play 2 hour gigs. It has really made a difference for my shoulder problems.

I would speculate that you could go from a 14.25" lower bout to a 15" with a well executed Manzer style wedge.

Steve

Clydeslide · #4 03-10-2014, 10:44 AM

It depends on what kind of discomfort you are trying to get rid of but it's not much to do with the 000 etc. size as their depth tends to be very similar for most builders.

As far as I'm aware It's designed to stop over rotation of the shoulder, so if that is your issue then go for it. Smaller sizes drop the height of your elbow which can cause stretching across the front of the shoulder so if that's the issue you need a smaller guitar (or different playing position).

JohnnyDes · #5 03-10-2014, 11:17 AM

I have to say I'm confused by the responses stating that the depth of a 000 is the same as the depth of a 00. This I know. But does the Manzer wedge not decrease the depth of the left side?

Just to be clear my question is whether a 000 with a Manzer wedge would have the same comfort as a 00 without a Manzer wedge.

JD

dennisczech · #6 03-10-2014, 02:27 PM

Er, in my experience, the answer to your question is... yes.

BBWW · #7 03-10-2014, 03:11 PM

I think you could move up a size with a Wedge. I have no issues with my OM Leach with a wedge or my McKnight Mini-Mac.

If your pain issue is from reaching "Forward" with the shoulder to accommodate your playing. A wedge would help this greatly.

Bruce Sexauer · #8 03-10-2014, 03:16 PM

Although it is true that a 00 and a 000 are the same depth, geometry plays a significant part as the distance the edge of the guitar is from the centerline increases the required reach over as it becomes greater, even though the thickness stays the same. Most implementations of the "Manzer" wedge are similar to those I've seen her do, which is something approaching and inch in difference between the thickness of the two sides. My own version generally has only a 1/4" or so of difference, which is enough to make a full "0" of difference in a guitar. In fact I have designed it exactly on these parameters!

However, reach-over is only part of the equation, the fact that the face becomes tilted slightly toward the player (by the wedge) also makes a difference to our shoulders and back, and too much of that tilt can cause a guitar to feel odd, to me, and cause issues with the left hand having to reach around too far. This is a good example of a situation where too much of a good thing (IMO) has become the norm! If you are aware of my take on MultiScale you will see that as another area which I view as have gone the same route. I do believe that in a perfect world, all guitars would have some wedge and some MultiScale, but in both cases it would be pretty subtle compared to most of what we see today.

JohnnyDes · #9 03-10-2014, 03:27 PM

Thank you Bruce for the interesting perspective. So if I understand you correctly, you think a 1/4" of wedge is worth an "0" in size? Can you elaborate a little on that?

Also, I hear you on the tilting benefit for the shoulders and back. I've struggled with multiple ergonomic problems. I had - over time - decided that smaller is better (due to shoulder distention issues), but lately I'm getting a host of new issues with the parlors I've been playing. I now believe this is due to excessive shoulder hunching and right arm 'curling' to bring my hand to its proper position at the sound hole (I play classical position).

So I'm now considering that a 000 with wedge may be the best compromise.

JD

Bruce Sexauer · #10 03-10-2014, 06:18 PM

I am not sure how to elaborate on the "0" thing, it seems self explanatory.

I subtly wedge almost everything I make, and consider it an obvious improvement. A "no brainer". The "0" analogy stops working with the Single 0 because it is significantly thicker than a 00 or 000. In what way is a edged 000 a compromise? Not compared to an unwedged 000 as there is no compromise there. Compared to a dred maybe, but why not a wedged dred then? I've made several such, not that the owners have necessarily noticed it.

I think my 000 sized wedged mini-D is the answer for a person who likes the D thing but wants to be comfortable. It continues to amaze me how such a guitar has D qualities in spite of fitting in a 000 case.

By the way, NONE of my 70+ Schoenberg guitars are wedged, they are every one built to Eric's more traditional standards. I mention this in case anyone wants to seek out my work to find out what I'm talking about.

Larry Pattis · #11 03-10-2014, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JohnnyDes

I have to say I'm confused by the responses stating that the depth of a 000 is the same as the depth of a 00. This I know. But does the Manzer wedge not decrease the depth of the left side?

Just to be clear my question is whether a 000 with a Manzer wedge would have the same comfort as a 00 without a Manzer wedge.

JD

IMO the answer to this question is personal; it fully depends on you, how you sit with the guitar, your body type, etc.

Also, the Martin "standard" for body-depth is considerably shallower on these guitars (mentioned) compared to many modern builders. Some are up to 1/2" deeper/thicker at both headblock and tailblock.

Regarding ergonomics, I recommend considering a guitar-support of one brand or another.

I was no longer able to sit with my OM sized guitars, until I discovered things like this. No need for wedge, arm-bevel, etc.:

colins · #12 03-11-2014, 12:19 AM

Larry

my physiotherapist is trying to get me to improve my right hand & arm position, but changing the guitar by much feels "weird" for my left hand. That photo of you above looks like a fantastic position for your right hand/arm; did it take long to adjust to the new position for the left hand?

Col

Larry Pattis · #13 03-11-2014, 09:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by colins

Larry

my physiotherapist is trying to get me to improve my right hand & arm position, but changing the guitar by much feels "weird" for my left hand. That photo of you above looks like a fantastic position for your right hand/arm; did it take long to adjust to the new position for the left hand?

Col

Most change is going to take some period of adjustment.

I had been going through lots of physical problems, and had tried to adjust my positioning to more or less resemble this posture, but with a tall footrest, and then in conjunction with a shoulder-strap. These efforts failed.

This past August/Sept. when I was able to play again (after some time off) I happily discovered the newest generation of the guitar-support devices...ones that had enough rigidity for me to comfortably maintain the position you see.

It did not take much (if any) time for both hands/arms to adjust to this fairly vertical position...it was an extension of what I had been trying to do, position-wise, and this put me in my long-desired position. So for me, it was no problem.

One of the silly issues for me is that some of these devices don't have great traction on the pant leg...jeans, dress pants, whatever. They slip a bit. I have taken to using a silicone product that cures to a flexible, rubber-like feel. This immediately solves the issue. One manufacturer (the A-Frame) uses this all the time (but I apply more, for more coverage on the strap), and I am also chatting with another small company (Guitarest) about this same issue.

El Conquistador · #14 03-11-2014, 10:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Larry Pattis

I happily discovered the newest generation of the guitar-support devices...ones that had enough rigidity for me to comfortably maintain the position you see.

Larry,
I see you are using a Trio Guitar Rest in this picture. I am very happy with mine. So, I appreciate your thoughts on this piece of gear.

Steve

Larry Pattis · #15 03-11-2014, 02:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by El Conquistador

Larry,
I see you are using a Trio Guitar Rest in this picture. I am very happy with mine. So, I appreciate your thoughts on this piece of gear.

Steve

I like the Guitarest and the A-Frame in regards to both positioning and support.

I'm working with the manufacturer of the Guitarest to have a product with more friction between the strap and the pant-leg. The shoulder-pad that is their current solution to this does not work particularly well for me.

More, later...