Does adding electronics change the acoustic tone?

[RossM]

I'm getting a high end guitar that doesn't have any electronics in it. I'm considering a nice pick-up systems like an LR Baggs Anthem TRU-Mic that doesn't require cutting into the body. Assuming it is professionally installed, would I be able to hear a difference in the guitar unplugged or would it sound exactly the same?
I'm concerned because this particular guitar has an extremity fine delicate shimmer, almost chorusy sound to the notes and I don't want to lose that. It's the reason I picked this guitar.
I'd like a pickup because my house is in a very noisy area next to a highway and construction, and my condenser mic picks up everything. Plus I like to put my headphones on and hear my guitar and voice through the headphones.

Unless you install an under-saddle piezo pickup, you won't hear any difference. And even if you do install a piezo, you still might not notice a change. Proceed with confidence.

[6L6]

If you install a K&K Pure Mini, no change in tone.

[RossM]

Originally Posted by Willie Voltaire

Unless you install an under-saddle piezo pickup, you won't hear any difference. And even if you do install a piezo, you still might not notice a change. Proceed with confidence.

Cool!
I do need the action raised a bit because the previous owner was more delicate fingers style and I'm more of a strummer. If the piezo raises the action a little bit it might be perfect.
Thanks.

[RossM]

Originally Posted by 6L6

If you install a K&K Pure Mini, no change in tone.

I definately need to do my homework on the different pickup systems. At this moment I like the idea of the piezo/mic blend option. The only acoustic pickup I've ever used is the Fishman USB factory installed in my Concert git. That pickup sounds OK but you can clearly hear that the signal is from a piezo pickup and not the true acoustic sound. Hoping for something better.

[rokdog49]

there are great options out there. Take your time and do some homework.

This might help. It helped me.

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptests/

[JayBee1404]

Originally Posted by 6L6

If you install a K&K Pure Mini, no change in tone.

+1 to that!

No battery, no on-board controls or pre-amp, no element between the saddle and bridge to interfere with unplugged tone. Great pickup.

[kydave]

Originally Posted by RossM

Cool!
I do need the action raised a bit because the previous owner was more delicate fingers style and I'm more of a strummer. If the piezo raises the action a little bit it might be perfect.
Thanks.

Get a new saddle!

Friends don't let friends use under saddle pickups. They DO change the unplugged sound. The degree is open to debate, not the fact of change.

That UST is not the same as installing a solid wood or bone shim. It is a conglomeration of multi-layered materials. Depending on the brand, some of those layers are less solid/dense than others.

I have done experiments where I could definitely detect a loss of sound (tone/volume) with a guitar having a solid bone saddle of the same height as the saddle w/UST under it versus the same guitar with the UST/saddle combination. There was better sound with the saddle alone. The UST was a detriment.

[merlin666]

Originally Posted by RossM

I'm getting a high end guitar that doesn't have any electronics in it.

My question would go the other way - are any electronics capable of reproducing the unique tone of a high end acoustic? I have to admit that I don't listen to much amplified music, but usually the acoustics sound fairly generic and it's barely possible to distinguish a Taylor from a Gibson from a Martin. Heck, if I wanted to amplify I'd just get a sturdy el-cheapo laminate guitar and invest heavily into the electronics needed to create any sound I would want in a digital way.

[fazool]

Originally Posted by kydave

Get a new saddle!

Friends don't let friends use under saddle pickups. They DO change the unplugged sound. ....

In addition to changing the unplugged sound, they sound terrible when plugged in.

Piezo quack is possibly the worst sound to my ears. To me it's like listening to nails-on-a-chalkboard while chewing tinfoil.

[rokdog49]

Originally Posted by kydave

Get a new saddle!

Friends don't let friends use under saddle pickups. They DO change the unplugged sound. The degree is open to debate, not the fact of change.

That UST is not the same as installing a solid wood or bone shim. It is a conglomeration of multi-layered materials. Depending on the brand, some of those layers are less solid/dense than others.

I have done experiments where I could definitely detect a loss of sound (tone/volume) with a guitar having a solid bone saddle of the same height as the saddle w/UST under it versus the same guitar with the UST/saddle combination. There was better sound with the saddle alone. The UST was a detriment.

The LR Baggs Anthem and Anthem SL use a UST and a Microphone and they will get you very close to your guitars acoustic sound.
If you don't believe me, contact Doug Young. He knows more about pick up systems than 99% of us.

[roylor4]

Originally Posted by fazool

In addition to changing the unplugged sound, they sound terrible when plugged in.

Piezo quack is possibly the worst sound to my ears. To me it's like listening to nails-on-a-chalkboard while chewing tinfoil.

+1 on this, lot's of better sounding options than a UST

[jseth]

When I had James and Luke Goodall build me my Grand Concert, I was in the same frame of mind as you are now; in NO WAY was I willing to compromise the tone of this marvelous little guitar! At first, I thought I wouldn't even have a pickup in it, but very quickly I realized that I was going to want to take this guitar out with me to play on stage...

So I began a search for a truly "non-invasive" pickup that would not alter the sound of my guitar. I checked out sound-hole pickups (of which I liked the Duncan Mag-Mic the best), but, in the end, I opted for the K&K PW Mini, a soundboard transducer that had no internal battery or pre-amp. I could never find a sound-hole pickup that absolutely would not leave any marks on the redwood top of my Goodall.

I have two guitars that I use for my "stage work"; both are handmade by Mark Angus, a 6 and a 12 string. I've owned these guitars since 1979 (6 string) and 1983 (12 string), and I am a professional musician, so I have had all sorts of pickups in them over the decades...

Currently (and prior to the Goodall) I had Baggs Anthem SL pickups installed in each of them. The alteration of tone and volume was HUGE with the 6 string, not so much with the 12 string. Loss of volume and the tone was sort-of "squashed", not so much in a bad way, but it was MUCH different from the way the guitar had been.

After about 6-9 months, the tone evened out a bit, and most of the "lost" volume came back... don't know why, exactly, but the UST portion of the Anthem is The Element, which has a slightly squishy soft braided cover, and my best guess is that soft covering took a while to "mold" itself completely?

I have never experienced ANY difference in tone from the previous UST pickups I had used... notably, the Fishman Matrix Infinity Natural (???) had zero impact on the unplugged tone of the guitars... but I have come to the point where I don't really like the sound of a UST, especially when I want to "dig in" a bit.

The K&K didn't affect the sound or volume from my Goodall. I suspect that any of the bridgeplate transducers would achieve similar results... like the JJB, or the Trance Audio Lens system... a newer model of these would be the Dazzo. Both the Dazzo and the Trance systems owe a lot to the old FRAP systems of the 70's except much upgraded.

My issue with the Trance system used to be that, a) it was quite pricey, and b) it involved an internal preamp and a battery, which I was unwilling to hang inside my guitar. Now Trance has a mono version that uses an external preamp and it is a bit more cost-effective for my budget.

If I were starting again, now, I'd go with the Trance-Audio system and use the preamp/mixer with my Bose system as the "front-end' for that pickup. One of our sponsors, Maury's Music, is a big proponent of the Trance stuff, and Maury has one installed in his Martin that you can hear in some sound clips... Check those out.

The K&K is still in my Goodall, and I like it okay, but it needs some tweaking to get a sound I like, plus, in a performing environment, I would want to use an external microphone to bring in some string noise and the "breath" of the guitar - both aspects of the overall sound that the K&K can't/doesn't reproduce, as it only sense what the vibrations are on that bridgeplate.

Hope this gives you some "real-world' information that helps your decision!

[Ed-in-Ohio]

I've added soundboard transducers (K&K Pure Mini), undersaddle pickups (DTar Wavelength), and permanently mounted soundhole pickups (DiMarzio Angel) to my guitars, and have never noticed a degradation of the acoustic sound of any of the guitars.

As a matter of fact...I swear that the DiMarzio Angel soundhole pickup actually made my Martin 000-15 sound BETTER acoustically! (more bass).

Of course, your mileage may vary!

[RossM]

Originally Posted by merlin666

My question would go the other way - are any electronics capable of reproducing the unique tone of a high end acoustic? I have to admit that I don't listen to much amplified music, but usually the acoustics sound fairly generic and it's barely possible to distinguish a Taylor from a Gibson from a Martin. Heck, if I wanted to amplify I'd just get a sturdy el-cheapo laminate guitar and invest heavily into the electronics needed to create any sound I would want in a digital way.

Valid points.
Without writing an essay my reasoning goes like this:
I have a nice import git with a piezo pickup. I've been trying very hard to learn to sing and play guitar. I'm only slightly better than a beginner guitar player and I struggle to sing on key. I've found that by running the guitar and my voice through a mixer and into headphones I can really hear when I'm on key. Its improved my vocal skills greatly but I have a long way to go.
I want to switch to the new guitar for all my practice time but still be able to run my headphones set-up. The end goal is recording but I'm not exactly there yet. I also want to do local open mics but I won't be taking this guitar anywhere like that.
I have used two mics and left my guitar unplugged and it works pretty good but my room is noisy. The Dynamic mic I have for voice doesn't pick up much noise the the Condenser certainly does.
I dunno, I'm just exploring options and learning right now. I won't have my new guitar payed off and home until after Feb 20th so I have a little time to figure it out.
Here is the thread I started when I found the guitar. You can see that I've been paying on this a while...grrr....
Played a Jaw-Dropper forum link

Thanks for all the replys I have some studying to do.