Pickup for D-28 Authentic '37

[martingitdave]

Hi folks,

Who here has experience with pickup in this model Martin? Since the saddle is glued, it needs to be a contact pickup or mic.

My only similar experience was with the Marquis. My trials left me with one good option, a K&K, because the bridge plate was small. The K&K actually sounds great in it.

I also tried the LR Baggs Lyric in the Marquis, but it wasn't a good sonic fit.

I corresponded with KyDave and the K&K is a tight fit, but it will work.

Tell me if I'm wrong, but it looks to me like the Trance Amulet and Dazzo won't fit.

So what's worked for you in your '37A?

Lyric?
B-Band AST?
K&K?

I'm obviously OK with the K&K, but I'd like to know the options before permanently glueing those babies in.

Update:

I am going to try the following:

1. Schatten HFN Active VT
2. K&K Pre phrase

I'm not sure the Schatten will fit, but it's worth a try.



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[martingitdave]

I opened the B Band package to look at the sensor and preamp system. Honestly, it looks like a quality product. I've heard mixed reviews from these installs. Ken says he had a good recent experience with the Dread Junior. It might be worth a shot just based on the physical constraints.


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[martingitdave]

I ordered the Lyric. Yes, this is my third attempt with it. The first attempt in a 12 string dreadnought went well. The second was a disaster in my Marquis. I'm hoping third time is a charm. So far the B Band reviews are mostly on the negative side. But, I'll I give it a shot, if need be. For now, the plan is Lyric first. If that fails, then the B-Band. If that fails, then it's superglue and K&K time! All indications are that the Trance will not fit.


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[Cuki79]

the lyric in my D-18 definitely needs the IR process to sound good. Bass are cut too strong. however, if you planned to buy a tonedexter you'd better go with the amulet. Because the lyric has an internal multi band compression. If you want full dynamic, the amulet seems to be the right choice.

However don't put out the lyric before having tried a custom IR.

Cuki

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

the lyric in my D-18 definitely needs the IR process to sound good. Bass are cut too strong. however, if you planned to buy a tonedexter you'd better go with the amulet. Because the lyric has an internal multi band compression. If you want full dynamic, the amulet seems to be the right choice.



However don't put out the lyric before having tried a custom IR.



Cuki

Hi Cuki!

I was hoping you'd check in. Unfortunately, the Amulet will not fit on the bridge plate. So, I'm left with the K&K, B-Band, and Lyric that are small enough to fit. The saddle is glued in, so no UST will work.

I think you're right about the Lyric. The bass is rolled off to prevent feedback and it sounded a little dull to me, and too mid range heavy in my last guitar. I think I'm going to return it without opening it. I need a solution that sounds passable without an IR or modeling. The IR or modeling will be useful when I have full control over my sound.

Any experience with B-Band AST transducers? There is no compression in the preamp. Just a 180 Hz notch, evidently. So far, my only exposure to it is with Doug Young's site and it sounded pretty weak on it's own. I'm thinking I box it back up and send it back too.

The benefit of the K&K is that is sounds pretty good on its own.

I've decided to add a Schatten HFN Active VT to the mix. I have one on order. The price is reasonable, and it sounded very good on it's own through Doug's pickup tests. Evidently, the install can be a bit messy with the putty. I'm going to try it with the foam tape first. I'll plan to keep it, because I'm sure I can use it in another guitar in the future. Also, I have a fellow club member who's use this successfully in a guitar.

Last question for you...

How small can we miniaturize the Custom IR? I presume, it still needs to be in a pedal form factor?


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[Cuki79]

Hi Martingitdave,

personally I would not like the K&K because I would never use superglue on a D-28A 37'... That would definitely bother me... But that's very personal.

I've tried once the B-band because at my local shop they only swear by it. It sounded good and you can peal out the pickup: But I have no experience with K&K. So I can't say which one sounds better. From the Youtube video I would say K&K is somehow darker.

Some people said on the forum K&K can be unglued...(Maury?)

If I was considering a SBT, and could not go for the Amulet I would definitely check the Dazzo. In Europe a company called Erhlund patented the design.
http://www.google.com.na/patents/WO2...A1?cl=en&hl=fr
On the patent, the show a frequency response and it's pretty obvious the triangle shape works better. (Note The Dazzo patent does not say anything, the European patent gives more info)

Disc shape:

Square Shape:

Triangle shape:

How small can we miniaturize the Custom IR? I presume, it still needs to be in a pedal form factor?

1) Well Fishman did it. They use Blackfin DSP on the Aura onboard version. They are consumer grade DSPs that can work on battery. But it eats the battery very very fast. Note that I don't make the pedals. I did order an evaluation SHARC board (same DSP as UAD-2) to make my own pedal and add features I would like but If I wanted to "make" pedals for others It would need to be a community project with other people handling different steps of development.

2) At the moment, I use the EPSI pedal that is about the size of the Digitech Trio (I would say). For the smallest form factor, I would try the AMT Pangea which is 30*43*96(mm). That is pretty small and I think, would fit in the Martin case pocket. But if you add the power supply then you'd probably have nothing else in the pocket.
Note that both pedals have -10dBv input sensitivity so if you play finger style like me, the Lyric is a bit weak and needs a boost. (That can be made very small)

Note that the AMT Pangea only allows 20.5ms at 48KHz IR (984pts) so it's much less define than the Fishman Aura (2048pts)

Why do you need to be that small? I mean if you use the K&K you still need an external preamp/DI don't you?

Cuki

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Hi Martingitdave,

personally I would not like the K&K because I would never use superglue on a D-28A 37'... That would definitely bother me... But that's very personal.

I've tried once the B-band because at my local shop they only swear by it. It sounded good and you can peal out the pickup: But I have no experience with K&K. So I can't say which one sounds better. From the Youtube video I would say K&K is somehow darker.

Some people said on the forum K&K can be unglued...(Maury?)

If I was considering a SBT, and could not go for the Amulet I would definitely check the Dazzo. In Europe a company called Erhlund patented the design.
http://www.google.com.na/patents/WO2...A1?cl=en&hl=fr
On the patent, the show a frequency response and it's pretty obvious the triangle shape works better. (Note The Dazzo patent does not say anything, the European patent gives more info)

Disc shape:

Square Shape:

Triangle shape:





1) Well Fishman did it. They use Blackfin DSP on the Aura onboard version. They are consumer grade DSPs that can work on battery. But it eats the battery very very fast. Note that I don't make the pedals. I did order an evaluation SHARC board (same DSP as UAD-2) to make my own pedal and add features I would like but If I wanted to "make" pedals for others It would need to be a community project with other people handling different steps of development.

2) At the moment, I use the EPSI pedal that is about the size of the Digitech Trio (I would say). For the smallest form factor, I would try the AMT Pangea which is 30*43*96(mm). That is pretty small and I think, would fit in the Martin case pocket. But if you add the power supply then you'd probably have nothing else in the pocket.
Note that both pedals have -10dBv input sensitivity so if you play finger style like me, the Lyric is a bit weak and needs a boost. (That can be made very small)

Note that the AMT Pangea only allows 20.5ms at 48KHz IR (984pts) so it's much less define than the Fishman Aura (2048pts)

Why do you need to be that small? I mean if you use the K&K you still need an external preamp/DI don't you?

Cuki

Cuki,

I'm a bit on the fence with the K&K. Again, I know it works well, it's just semi permanent. And, I'm not 100% sure it's the best available solution. I have the B Band and the Schatten HFN to test. The Schatten sounds good in the pickup tests - actually better than the K&K and is less invasive.

Regarding pedals, I'm just curious about the DSP. I'm wondering out loud if there is an available solution that could be belt clipped. This would aid me when doing open Mics and such. It would be nice to have portable, battery operated, IR.


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[SpruceTop]

David,

Suggestion: Are you going to keep your Martin Marquis after you receive your Martin D-28 Authentic 1937? If so, why not continue to use your Martin Marquis, and your Taylors, as acoustic-electric performance guitars and keep the Martin D-28 Authentic 1937 strictly acoustic? I sincerely doubt you'll find the Authentic any better than your Marquis for amplified performance because its likely increased resonance will make potential feedback and overbearing resonances a bear to tame.

Ken

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Cuki,

I'm a bit on the fence with the K&K. Again, I know it works well, it's just semi permanent. And, I'm not 100% sure it's the best available solution. I have the B Band and the Schatten HFN to test. The Schatten sounds good in the pickup tests - actually better than the K&K and is less invasive.
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The Schatten HFN is finicky about its mounting as you must be sure all three legs of the pickup are firmly mounted on the bridgeplate, and remain so. This can involve sanding one or two of the bottoms of the legs. I went from the Schatten HFN Artist to the Trance Amulet M Dual Mono, and upon striking the first chord with the Trance installed, did a face palm and uttered, "So, that's what it's all about!"

There's nothing wrong with a K&K system if you're willing to work with signal processing.

I've installed only one B-Band system and had great results with it--much better than with the two *Schatten HFN Artist installations I did. You could try both these systems, as they're both reversible, without damaging the guitar or the systems, although the B-Band may require more care in removing the B-Band AST so as not to mangle it. I would try the Schatten first, B-Band next, and if those systems aren't satisfactory, install the K&K. I would, however, prior to installing a K&K system, recommend making the template to see if a Trance system can be installed in your guitar.

*I don't want to imply the Schatten HFN systems are sonically inferior to other systems, just that my results weren't satisfactory. The Schatten HFN Artist system I tried was well-made, and I'm sure it could have yielded excellent amplified tone for those will to work with it. There have been testimonials on this Amplification Forum of AGF that attest to this.

[Cuki79]

Originally Posted by martingitdave

Regarding pedals, I'm just curious about the DSP. I'm wondering out loud if there is an available solution that could be belt clipped. This would aid me when doing open Mics and such. It would be nice to have portable, battery operated, IR.

Well it's not an impossible mod for the EPSI.

Here is a picture of the inside. You can see the SD card reader that gives you an idea of the size of the board.


Probably it's possible to bypass the screen and button, so you have only one image loaded at startup.

Then you can buy an enclosure and add a beltclip.

I would however add
1) A boost. My boost board (CAE-MXR) is about the side of the SD card so it would fit in.
2) I would also buy a specific battery for that purpose because a simple 9V battery won't do the job.

Note that it may be easier to start from an AMT Pangea that already fits in a pocket. 20ms is very short but we can try.... I could make you an IR and cut it very short.

The AMT needs a Power supply: 12VDC, 100mA... A battery for that is not uncommon in model making..

PS: Maybe you should also consider SpruceTop idea...

Cuki

[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

David,



Suggestion: Are you going to keep your Martin Marquis after you receive your Martin D-28 Authentic 1937? If so, why not continue to use your Martin Marquis, and your Taylors, as acoustic-electric performance guitars and keep the Martin D-28 Authentic 1937 strictly acoustic? I sincerely doubt you'll find the Authentic any better than your Marquis for amplified performance because its likely increased resonance will make potential feedback and overbearing resonances a bear to tame.



Ken

Ken,

I WISH I could keep both. But, alas, the Marquis was sold yesterday to facilitate the Authentic. The Authentic will be used out for small concerts and performances, so a pickup is important.


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[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by SpruceTop

The Schatten HFN is finicky about its mounting as you must be sure all three legs of the pickup are firmly mounted on the bridgeplate, and remain so. This can involve sanding one or two of the bottoms of the legs. I went from the Schatten HFN Artist to the Trance Amulet M Dual Mono, and upon striking the first chord with the Trance installed, did a face palm and uttered, "So, that's what it's all about!"

There's nothing wrong with a K&K system if you're willing to work with signal processing.

I've installed only one B-Band system and had great results with it--much better than with the two *Schatten HFN Artist installations I did. You could try both these systems, as they're both reversible, without damaging the guitar or the systems, although the B-Band may require more care in removing the B-Band AST so as not to mangle it. I would try the Schatten first, B-Band next, and if those systems aren't satisfactory, install the K&K. I would, however, prior to installing a K&K system, recommend making the template to see if a Trance system can be installed in your guitar.

*I don't want to imply the Schatten HFN systems are sonically inferior to other systems, just that my results weren't satisfactory. The Schatten HFN Artist system I tried was well-made, and I'm sure it could have yielded excellent amplified tone for those will to work with it. There have been testimonials on this Amplification Forum of AGF that attest to this.

Ken,

That's exactly the advice I was looking for. I'll try the Schatten first, then the B Band, and finally the K&K. I am going to do the template for the Amulet before I do anything. If by some miracle the Trance will fit, I'll order it. Maury is the only one I know selling it, and I don't want to have to do a return to his store. So, I'll need to confirm it first. The test of the products were sold by Amazon, which accepts returns without questions.


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[martingitdave]

Originally Posted by Cuki79

Well it's not an impossible mod for the EPSI.



Here is a picture of the inside. You can see the SD card reader that gives you an idea of the size of the board.





Probably it's possible to bypass the screen and button, so you have only one image loaded at startup.



Then you can buy an enclosure and add a beltclip.



I would however add

1) A boost. My boost board (CAE-MXR) is about the side of the SD card so it would fit in.

2) I would also buy a specific battery for that purpose because a simple 9V battery won't do the job.



Note that it may be easier to start from an AMT Pangea that already fits in a pocket. 20ms is very short but we can try.... I could make you an IR and cut it very short.



The AMT needs a Power supply: 12VDC, 100mA... A battery for that is not uncommon in model making..



PS: Maybe you should also consider SpruceTop idea...



Cuki

Wow, that is a lot of gear. I was looking at the internals of the onboard Aura plus with my previous Martin Retro guitars, and it's a rather large PCB. So, I can imagine they tried to shrink as much as possible.


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[akafloyd]

Don't forget some of the other SBTs like the McIntyre Feather, Pickup The World, or even the Baggs I-beam (I know it gets a lot of criticism for feedback but many people seem to have success with it).

[martingitdave]

Thanks for the alternate suggestions! The feather looks like it will be too big to fit on the bridge plate. The Baggs iBeam looks like it would fit. I don't know anyone using these any more. But, they were popular for a long time.


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