BRW, Rosewoods, Sexauer (and others) thread

[Oakland]

A while ago I ran across a thread where a number of luthiers, Bruce Sexauer among them, discussed how the sound of various rosewoods diverge away from Brazilian. I'm not even sure it was posted at AGF, but it was wonderfully informative.

I've spent two hours with Google, etc. and can't find it again.

Can anyone supply the link? It is well worth the read.

Thanks.

[Bruce Sexauer]

I was born in Oakland, California.

I think this is the thread you refer to:
Tonewood ranking

[Oakland]

Thanks, Bruce!

I was born in Needham, MA

It's not the right thread, though. The one I'm thinking of was specifically not about "what I like best." Instead, it took Brazilian as the center of the rosewood universe and discussed how and how far the other rosewoods diverged from it using more objective criteria about the quality of their sound instead of preference. EIR is a lot like Brazilian but doesn't have the sparkle..., cocobolo is pretty far away because it is much harder sounding..., madrose... They all ended up sorted out along a spectrum with BRW in the center.

Do I remember an orange design theme for the pages?

I'm sure I'm not clever enough to make up a memory that good. It would be a great thread even if I did hallucinate the the original, though.

Cheers.

[Brackett Instruments]

I doubt these are the threads you're looking for, but you might find them interesting.

http://69.41.173.82/forums/showthread.php?t=169429

http://69.41.173.82/forums/showthread.php?t=169788

[drbluegrass]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

I was born in Oakland, California.

I think this is the thread you refer to:
Tonewood ranking

Very interesting link, Bruce. I hadn't seen that thread. Also interesting that EIR isn't even mentioned by most of the luthiers as being anywhere in the picture as a preferred tonewood except for Steve Kinnaird who picked it as his first choice. Go figure. Then there's Brackett's clips where a choice is made by listeners based on the sound clips and Honduran RW is the first choice with EIR as the second? I can tell you based on what I've seen and know so far, I'll definitely go with my ear and not pick anything based solely on reputation.
If I was going to have something custom made I'd probably be a wreck. It would be pretty darn hard for me to pick a rosewood or "rosewood sounding tonewood" for the back and sides, especially if price was not an issue. I'd have no choice but to go by the luthier's recommendation.
However, my over all choice as a tonewood combination would be pretty easy...hog/adi, hands down. Just something magical for me about a really fine guitar made with those woods. However, I do have a hog Collings CJ with Sitka that just kills. All kinds of exceptions to the "rules".


Tom

[Glennwillow]

Hi Tom,

I know this takes the thread of course a little bit, but I, too, think adi over mahogany is a pretty magic combination, though I also like adi over rosewood. I was just checking out this link from another AGF thread that, if you have seen this yet, you might find this interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Lkg7GsKQQ I believe the guitar is a Guild D40, I think adi over mahogany.

Back on topic, I think the involvement of luthiers like Bruce and Woody and others adds so much to the AGF. This discussion of tonewoods, to me, is always fascinating.

Regards, Glenn

[Bruce Sexauer]

I do not really think of Tonewoods in terms of which is better or worse, but rather which way the tonal envelope is pushed from a given reference point. The 2 most common reference points which most of us have some experience of are Honduran Mahogany and Brazilian Rosewood as these are the old standards. While most of us have our favorites, it is of little use crowing about them as that is opinion, emotionally biased, and discussion becomes a popularity poll rather than a useful tool for communication.

Most of the woods we use, with few exceptions, can be categorized by hardness in a spectrum between or projected beyond BRW and HMah, and the qualities of warmth relative to musical projection will generally fall right in line with those physical properties.

For those technical builders who make little or no dimensional alteration to compensate for the individual properties of the material, the Tonewood chosen will then make profound and predictable differences in the quality of the instrument. The true master of the medium, however, will move each instrument either toward the center as they understand it, or in the direction of their clients concept (assuming stellar communication skills). All Tonewoods will not do all things, so there is still a bias to the inherent qualities, but it is relatively subtle.

When people say better (or worse) that Brazilian Rosewood, they really mean more or less of certain qualities. Since our culture has historically favored the particular tonal characteristics associated with BRW, it is hard for me to see how more is better, and in fact I work very hard to get less of the more when working with the materials or structurally superiority. This is because "more" while undoubtedly impressive, does not sound better to me, instead it becomes increasingly annoying the longer I am subjected to it.

Then there are the several materials I've used that are other than, or outside, the typical spectrum. Some of these would be Pernambuco, Jatoba, or Catalpa. Each of these, in it's own way, produce results that are unexpected. Such instruments can defy direct comparison by normal standards. This can be very refreshing, opening up new vistas for the more adventurous. Sometimes I think of EIR as one of these materials, but instead of being beyond the pale it is too for to the center, a sort of Jello, hard to dislike, but bringing little to the party beyond the flavorings added to it's not unpleasant 2 dimensional texture. In theory this is a clean palette for the expression of the luthier, but for me there is something lost.

I don't know where the thread the OP referred to is, but perhaps it's spirit is more along these lines. In any case, I offer the above thoughts.

[Ilovetaylors]

It's the builder not the wood. THE STANDARD ANSWER!!!!

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by Oakland

A while ago I ran across a thread where a number of luthiers, Bruce Sexauer among them, discussed how the sound of various rosewoods diverge away from Brazilian. I'm not even sure it was posted at AGF, but it was wonderfully informative.

I've spent two hours with Google, etc. and can't find it again.

Can anyone supply the link? It is well worth the read.

Thanks.

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...scending-order

[drbluegrass]

Originally Posted by Ilovetaylors

It's the builder not the wood. THE STANDARD ANSWER!!!!

Certainly not the alpha and omega of acoustic guitar tone, but a huge portion of it, IMHO.


Tom

[drbluegrass]

Originally Posted by Bruce Sexauer

I do not really think of Tonewoods in terms of which is better or worse, but rather which way the tonal envelope is pushed from a given reference point. The 2 most common reference points which most of us have some experience of are Honduran Mahogany and Brazilian Rosewood as these are the old standards. While most of us have our favorites, it is of little use crowing about them as that is opinion, emotionally biased, and discussion becomes a popularity poll rather than a useful tool for communication.

Most of the woods we use, with few exceptions, can be categorized by hardness in a spectrum between or projected beyond BRW and HMah, and the qualities of warmth relative to musical projection will generally fall right in line with those physical properties.

For those technical builders who make little or no dimensional alteration to compensate for the individual properties of the material, the Tonewood chosen will then make profound and predictable differences in the quality of the instrument. The true master of the medium, however, will move each instrument either toward the center as they understand it, or in the direction of their clients concept (assuming stellar communication skills). All Tonewoods will not do all things, so there is still a bias to the inherent qualities, but it is relatively subtle.

When people say better (or worse) that Brazilian Rosewood, they really mean more or less of certain qualities. Since our culture has historically favored the particular tonal characteristics associated with BRW, it is hard for me to see how more is better, and in fact I work very hard to get less of the more when working with the materials or structurally superiority. This is because "more" while undoubtedly impressive, does not sound better to me, instead it becomes increasingly annoying the longer I am subjected to it.

Then there are the several materials I've used that are other than, or outside, the typical spectrum. Some of these would be Pernambuco, Jatoba, or Catalpa. Each of these, in it's own way, produce results that are unexpected. Such instruments can defy direct comparison by normal standards. This can be very refreshing, opening up new vistas for the more adventurous. Sometimes I think of EIR as one of these materials, but instead of being beyond the pale it is too for to the center, a sort of Jello, hard to dislike, but bringing little to the party beyond the flavorings added to it's not unpleasant 2 dimensional texture. In theory this is a clean palette for the expression of the luthier, but for me there is something lost.

I don't know where the thread the OP referred to is, but perhaps it's spirit is more along these lines. In any case, I offer the above thoughts.

Great, very informative post, Bruce. Thank you.


Tom

[drbluegrass]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

Hi Tom,

I know this takes the thread of course a little bit, but I, too, think adi over mahogany is a pretty magic combination, though I also like adi over rosewood. I was just checking out this link from another AGF thread that, if you have seen this yet, you might find this interesting. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_Lkg7GsKQQ I believe the guitar is a Guild D40, I think adi over mahogany.

Back on topic, I think the involvement of luthiers like Bruce and Woody and others adds so much to the AGF. This discussion of tonewoods, to me, is always fascinating.

Regards, Glenn

Wow!! Beautiful!! Everything about that vid was so beautiful...the tone of that Guild...dripping with tone and wonderful overtones...the video work was masterful...the song was wonderful...as were the playing skills of Vernon Thompson. Thank you, Glen, for that.
And, yes, I do favor hog guitars over rosewood but I still love my EIR Collings D-2HA, no tongue brace. It's also a rare hide glue Collings and sounds superb. But right now my favorite of all my guitars is my new Collings, hog/Sitka, CJ. It simply has the "everything" I seek in a guitar and I'm not even sure I can describe what that "everything" is?


Tom

[Oakland]

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

http://theunofficialmartinguitarforu...scending-order

Ahhhh! Thank you Howard.
A mind is a terrible thing to have wasted.