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  #1  
Old 12-12-2010, 09:48 PM
strumminman strumminman is offline
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Default Mic Feedback From Bose L1

I have just purchased a Bose L1 Model II system with the Tonematch. Because I have a low voice, I need to ensure my Mic level is way up so my audience can hear me clear. However, when I set my mic level high, I get feedback. I can turn down the trim level, however I lose volume; or turn down the volume on the Tonematch or the main, but still can't seem to get the volume I want without the feedback. I would appreciate any suggestions from anyone who has or has had one of these systems. I also play an acoustic guitar through this system. Again, because I don't use a pick (just bare thumb), I need the volume level high for the sound. Any help would be appreciated. Thank you.
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Old 12-12-2010, 11:36 PM
jjrubin jjrubin is offline
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Hi Strumminman,

I think you'll find the Bose forum covers all this stuff in detail http://bose.infopop.cc/6/ubb.x
but here's a quick list:

1. get at least 6 ft. separation between the mic and the tower
2. don't point the mic straight back at the tower; angle it a bit off center relative to the tower, and angle a bit off parallel to the floor
3. use ParaEQ on the T1 to find the specific frequency the mic is feeding back and cut it
4. and/or use zEQ bands to take cuts within a broader range (low, mid, high) where feedback occurs
5. try a different mic preset
6. use the Noise Gate effect on the T1 to cut out the mic entirely below some threshold (when you're not singing and your head is not 'shadowing' the mic)

What mic are you using? I found when upgrading from SM58 to beta58 I needed less gain, and feedback issues pretty much went away.
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Old 12-13-2010, 05:47 AM
Earthworm Earthworm is offline
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I've been using Bose systems since they first came out. I sing very close to the mic--lips touching sometimes. This helps a lot. I also angle the mic upward a bit which also helps.

Good luck! You've got a great system!
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:51 AM
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Which vocal mic are you using? Look on the Bose forum for mic suggestions that feedback resistant.
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Old 12-13-2010, 09:05 AM
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When I hear that you have a "low" voice, first thing that comes to mind is that if you're not able to get enough volume out of your mic before feeding back, you are either singing out of your range, or you need to learn to project more.

Basically, I'm saying to treat the condition instead of the symptoms.
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Old 12-13-2010, 02:13 PM
jseth jseth is offline
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I have a Bose Model I Classic - I prefer to run striaght through that, but I have a T1 as well, mostly for the extra inputs in case I have friends sitting in... I have NEVER had any feedback trouble with the mic I use - a Shure Beta 58A - and I don't sing extra loud myself, so I have the volume up pretty good. I leave the system "hot" when I take a break, too; volume up and ready, never even a whimper from the vocal mic...

So, in addition to the other comments here, the FIRST thing to do is to follow Bose's "gain staging" process when setting up your mic channel. Just do it like they suggest (actually a great idea with any PA or mic/guitar, not just Bose's good idea)...

Singing "close-mic" is a good way to limit feedback, as is having the mic slightly angled upward. Some mic's are more prone to feedback than others; perhaps it's time to switch mics? You didn't say what type of microphone you are using, but I'm assuming it's a good one - why have a great sound system and a crappy mic, right?

Let us know if you solve the problem - I REALLY think the gain staging process is going to take care of it, though. Another thing, cut ALL fx on your vocal mic and try it that way. If you use a lot of "treatment" on your vocals, that can wreak havoc with the overall sound.

I do like the suggestion about working on your vocal technique - one thing's for sure, you have to BREATHE when you sing or you'll have nothing to project your notes.

Good luck - I hope this is helpful for you!
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Old 12-13-2010, 08:31 PM
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I also have a "low" or I'd characterize it as "weak" voice, some days worse than others..... I've never owned a Bose but had the same issue with feedback; tried a lot of remedies, including several different mics and even a feedback destroyer. Aside from the specific advice relative to the Bose, which I have no experience, I'd say you've already gotten some good tips.... of which the best, in my experience are placement (mic to speaker), understand gain staging and, learn to use close mic technique. The issue you're likely to run into relative to close mic technique is proximity effect, some mics are more sensitive than others. The one I've found to be most "forgiving" is the Audix OM7. Oh, by the way, the feedback destroyer works, problem is, whilst it's "killing" the feedback frequency, it's "killing" the vocal quality of your voice. Whatever "sparkle" you have in your voice will become duller with each deployed filter shot. Hope this helps, good luck!
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:47 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pegleg View Post
...Oh, by the way, the feedback destroyer works, problem is, whilst it's "killing" the feedback frequency, it's "killing" the vocal quality of your voice. Whatever "sparkle" you have in your voice will become duller with each deployed filter shot. Hope this helps, good luck!
Sorry to intrude and partially hijack this thread, but: I beg to differ on that specific point. We also use a feedback destroyer (in conjunction with a large diaphragm condenser mic, so it's almost a necessity), and on most every gig we get compliments on the "airy", "transparent" vocal sound. Granted, those digital filters do indeed tweak the sound, but apparently in a manner that's not necessarily detrimental, at least to the average listener. Or maybe it's because our typical audience is predominantly in the 55+ demographic
Then again, them youngins are used to listen to grossly compressed and distorted MP3s...
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Old 12-14-2010, 06:57 AM
Pegleg Pegleg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiSt View Post
Sorry to intrude and partially hijack this thread, but: I beg to differ on that specific point. We also use a feedback destroyer (in conjunction with a large diaphragm condenser mic, so it's almost a necessity), and on most every gig we get compliments on the "airy", "transparent" vocal sound. Granted, those digital filters do indeed tweak the sound, but apparently in a manner that's not necessarily detrimental, at least to the average listener. Or maybe it's because our typical audience is predominantly in the 55+ demographic
Then again, them youngins are used to listen to grossly compressed and distorted MP3s...
Well, reading your comments, I'm not sure we actually do "differ", but if I'm mistaken, all's good as it's subjective to begin with. Having said that, let me add some specific logic (my logic); if the human voice and, your instrument (acoustic guitar in my case) is made up of multiple frequencies, of which the sum equals the tonal quality and what the human ear hears. And one or more of them causes feedback, the destroyer "kills" it, then at some threshold the human ear will be able to discern that... so, my "take" on your characterization of your experience is either 1. You've done an excellent job of using other techniques to control the condensor mic, and the destroyer has not "killed" enough freqs to discern a dulling of tonal quality or, 2. The "offending" frequencies are coming from the channel your instrument is on and, therefore not affecting your vocals. The unit I've used has both level and filter shot indicator lights, so as I play/sing I can see input level on both the instrument and vocal channels, when filter shots deployed get above 3-4, I can hear the tonal quality getting "duller", and it gets worse as more are deployed. It's more pronounced on my vocals than guitar, but I can clearly hear it. So, I stand by my comment, albeit we've had different experiences.
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:16 AM
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I'm using a single mic setup, no separation between voice and instrument(s). The offending frequencies are caused by room geometry and mic/loudspeaker placement. I let the feedback destroyer do its thing while the room is empty and quiet (as advised by the manufacturer) by gradually increasing master volume. Depending on a number of factors, anything between 8 and 16 individual filters kick in (I can visually monitor the number of active filters).

Of course you're right when you say that the FB destroyer takes away individual frequencies and hence will "distort" the sound (I'm a physicist with a specialization in digital signal processing, so I'm quite familiar with the concept of narrowband notch filters, and I also know what horrible things they do with the phase).

My take of the matter is that the freedom of movement afforded by the single mic technique, and the complete lack of proximity effect (because we usually keep a distance of say 8-10 inches from the mic) make for a more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer, at least that's what audience members have told me many times over.

Looks like this is very much a "YMMV" proposition. BTW, I use the Peavey Feedback Ferret, and have used a Sabine unit (with similar results) before.
I have had a horrible experience with an inexpensive Behringer unit the other day, though. Fortunately I was able to return it. Wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Downright devastating.
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:28 AM
BoB/335 BoB/335 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiSt View Post
I'm using a single mic setup, no separation between voice and instrument(s). The offending frequencies are caused by room geometry and mic/loudspeaker placement. I let the feedback destroyer do its thing while the room is empty and quiet (as advised by the manufacturer) by gradually increasing master volume. Depending on a number of factors, anything between 8 and 16 individual filters kick in (I can visually monitor the number of active filters).

Of course you're right when you say that the FB destroyer takes away individual frequencies and hence will "distort" the sound (I'm a physicist with a specialization in digital signal processing, so I'm quite familiar with the concept of narrowband notch filters, and I also know what horrible things they do with the phase).

My take of the matter is that the freedom of movement afforded by the single mic technique, and the complete lack of proximity effect (because we usually keep a distance of say 8-10 inches from the mic) make for a more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer, at least that's what audience members have told me many times over.

Looks like this is very much a "YMMV" proposition. BTW, I use the Peavey Feedback Ferret, and have used a Sabine unit (with similar results) before.
I have had a horrible experience with an inexpensive Behringer unit the other day, though. Fortunately I was able to return it. Wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Downright devastating.
Chances of having feedabck with your setup seem almost inpossible to avoid.
So you think going for this more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer is a better way to go than to get a multi-source pickup system for the guitar and getting the vocals closer to the mic virtually elliminating the cause of feedback and therefore elliminating the frequencies that are being destroyed???

HMmmm that's interesting.
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:04 AM
DiSt DiSt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BoB/335 View Post
... So you think going for this more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer is a better way to go than to get a multi-source pickup system for the guitar and getting the vocals closer to the mic virtually elliminating the cause of feedback and therefore elliminating the frequencies that are being destroyed???

HMmmm that's interesting.
Guess it's a matter of choice between a rock and a hard place.
Ever try to install a decent pickup in an openback banjo? A mandolin? A vintage archtop? A dobro?
Many bluegrass acts use the single mic technique. Yes, a five piece band can use it. Makes for a clean uncluttered stage. No forest of mic booms, everybody gets to hear everyone else. Soloists constantly gyrate around the mic, thus automatically providing a sort of a choreography that's appreciated by the audience.
Also, eliminates the need for an additional FOH mixing person.

Of course, this technique isn't suitable for a football stadium, or a noisy bar where you try to cut through the banter. But for an audience that actually wants to listen, just fine.

Here's a link with details.

and here's a picture (not my band):
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Old 12-14-2010, 08:09 AM
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Guess that's a different story.
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Old 12-14-2010, 01:23 PM
Earthworm Earthworm is offline
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I could listen to your band all night!
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Old 12-14-2010, 07:53 PM
Pegleg Pegleg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DiSt View Post
I'm using a single mic setup, no separation between voice and instrument(s). The offending frequencies are caused by room geometry and mic/loudspeaker placement. I let the feedback destroyer do its thing while the room is empty and quiet (as advised by the manufacturer) by gradually increasing master volume. Depending on a number of factors, anything between 8 and 16 individual filters kick in (I can visually monitor the number of active filters).

Of course you're right when you say that the FB destroyer takes away individual frequencies and hence will "distort" the sound (I'm a physicist with a specialization in digital signal processing, so I'm quite familiar with the concept of narrowband notch filters, and I also know what horrible things they do with the phase).

My take of the matter is that the freedom of movement afforded by the single mic technique, and the complete lack of proximity effect (because we usually keep a distance of say 8-10 inches from the mic) make for a more "natural" sound despite the severe interfering of the FB destroyer, at least that's what audience members have told me many times over.

Looks like this is very much a "YMMV" proposition. BTW, I use the Peavey Feedback Ferret, and have used a Sabine unit (with similar results) before.
I have had a horrible experience with an inexpensive Behringer unit the other day, though. Fortunately I was able to return it. Wouldn't want to touch it with a ten foot pole. Downright devastating.
This adds the needed clarity I think... the OP can decide which circumstance is most applicable and, in addition, the quality of the feedback destroyer also matters.
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