studio monitors for multi uses

[KevWind]

Interesting , and I agree that in the home recording realm, I think people vastly underestimate the importance of "The Room" for mixing. For example the notion about "close mic-ing" does absolutely nothing to help room anomalies while mixing.

[Psalad]

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

Plopping an enormously costly monitor system, which claims to be flat, in a goony bad room and expecting to get the benefits of flat response is simply internet wives tale fodder.

It's likely many here know this, but the issue with using EQ to correct for room response is you are only solving half the problem, as you also have to correct in the time domain. I know in this case we're talking about an existing treated room, and that's the way correcting in the time domain is done (trying to tame ringing that causes multiple problems). But someone reading might think all they need to do is use corrective EQ.

I have a well treated room (small single room for recording/monitoring/etc), and I also have a JBL monitor controller that comes with a measurement mic... it does corrective EQ to compensate for room problems. Honestly the difference between it working vs bypass is pretty subtle, but it does help me hear details that otherwise might be lost. But as most of you know it won't compensate for the other problems that exist in the time domain.

Here is a good simple writeup on the issue.. it took me a while to get my head around it. http://www.homestudiocorner.com/acou...om-correction/

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Psalad

It's likely many here know this, but the issue with using EQ to correct for room response is you are only solving half the problem, as you also have to correct in the time domain. I know in this case we're talking about an existing treated room, and that's the way correcting in the time domain is done (trying to tame ringing that causes multiple problems). But someone reading might think all they need to do is use corrective EQ.

I have a well treated room (small single room for recording/monitoring/etc), and I also have a JBL monitor controller that comes with a measurement mic... it does corrective EQ to compensate for room problems. Honestly the difference between it working vs bypass is pretty subtle, but it does help me hear details that otherwise might be lost. But as most of you know it won't compensate for the other problems that exist in the time domain.

Here is a good simple writeup on the issue.. it took me a while to get my head around it. http://www.homestudiocorner.com/acou...om-correction/

Yes of course the article you sited uses the term "time domain" but I think most who have been at this for a while knows this as reflective and refractive problems produced in varying degrees in a room. That's a massively important element in getting a room in sonic order and I by no means dismiss it's utter vitalness.

I perhaps used to broad of a brush stroke when I started using the term "tuning" as in my case it was intended to address the effectiveness (or lack there-in) of so-called flat response studio monitors and how eq is often needed in copious amounts. I was trying to stay narrowly focused on just how miserably "unflat" (frequency-wise) supposed flat response monitors are when placed in a train-wreck of a room.

[JohnW63]

I am getting the impression that to do a room RIGHT, takes a lot of thought and time and money.

I doubt I will ever get to that level. It is interesting the read about.

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

I am getting the impression that to do a room RIGHT, takes a lot of thought and time and money.

I doubt I will ever get to that level. It is interesting the read about.

Obviously the idea of room treatment can be taken to extremes. There of course must be compromises for those of us that approach this more as a hobby and less a business. There is gonna be a point of diminishing returns for most "project" style recording environments and I absolutely realize this.

That said what usually ruffles my feathers is the perpetuation of wives tale mis-conceptions that often grow massive wings and fly, here and on many other recording sites. I do however believe a firm and fundamental understanding of the actual issues at hand is the first step in solving problems even if the cost and repairs are spread out over time. Knowledge is particularly powerful on this subject. Conversely lumping room treatment under the cover all umbrella of quick-fix purchasable solutions like Auralex is foolish. I've seen people purchase $1000.00 worth of Auralex without first exploring what anomalies they actually are incurring . At that point one would be equally served buying empty egg containers and stapling them to the wall. The sonic gains will be similar.

Addressing the original topic (and how we got here in the first place) the concept of investing in flat response speakers, placing them in a bad room and somehow then expecting superior results is equally silly. I've mixed for a living now for 20 plus years and going on 15 years in my current position. I've mixed on everything from Radio Shack Minimus to Mackie's to Genelec's to Yamaha's to the newer JBL's and everything in between. I've never experienced a speaker in that vain giving me "fatigue" problems. I don't even know what that means. As far as response issues and differences, I simply adjust. It's takes a day or two to settle in on a new speaker system. For the most part easy peasy. I've done really bad mixes on all of them. I like to think I've done really good mixes on all of them as well, although there's a few Executive Producers that would probably argue the really good mix part. I've made my bay my primary "listen to music" area so my studio monitors have always been my delivery system. I honestly can't say the Genelec's are any better than the Mackie's, or Yamah's at playing back my music library.

In the end there are so many great monitors out there these days I'd think the best advice would be 1)set your budget 2) run up to Guitar Center and listen a bit. 3) pick a pair and get to work

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by JohnW63

I am getting the impression that to do a room RIGHT, takes a lot of thought and time and money.

I doubt I will ever get to that level. It is interesting the read about.

The odds are that buying an accurate speaker system will require less room treatment. One can enjoy a good speaker system without having to modify a room.

Incidentally, your Infinity speakers were designed with a flat-frequency as a goal. I had a pair of Infinity speakers that used the same tweeter, the Infinity InfiniTesimal Reference Standard 01 speakers. Unfortunately, Hurricane Ivan destroyed them. They’d have made good near-field monitors.

[Psalad]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

The odds are that buying an accurate speaker system will require less room treatment. One can enjoy a good speaker system without having to modify a room.

I don't find that true, for listening as in making mix decisions. For casual listening, sure.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Psalad

I don't find that true, for listening as in making mix decisions. For casual listening, sure.

Are you saying that in an untreated room, monitors with a deliberately nonlinear frequency response are more likely to yield good recording mixes than those with a more accurate frequency response?

[Joseph Hanna]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Are you saying that in an untreated room, monitors with a deliberately nonlinear frequency response are more likely to yield good recording mixes than those with a more accurate frequency response?

Maybe not likely but certainly very possible.

[Psalad]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Are you saying that in an untreated room, monitors with a deliberately nonlinear frequency response are more likely to yield good recording mixes than those with a more accurate frequency response?

No.. I'm arguing accuracy of the speaker and the room both strongly impact on the ability to mix in a room. I would even guess the room treatment might be more important (given a baseline of quality to the monitors), at least to a degree.

I had one of my Dynaudios go bad and had to go back to an old KRK set (my old main monitors, before room was treated), and maybe it was my own bias, but found it much easier to mix on them with the treatment. I found I could now mix well on the KRKs.

Anecdotal evidence and probably almost worthless, but it's where my experience leads me. Could also be I've gotten better and a variety of other possibilities, so clearly unscientific.

[JohnW63]

I would love to find and old set of Infinity Infintesimals ! Not the new plastic black ones. The original ones. Hard to find those these days, and I would need an amp to power them.

At some point, what speakers I get may very well get a good number of hours use as real studio mixing speakers, but that will be somewhere down the road, if it happens. I like the idea of it ! My goal is to have good enough tools to DO that, should the need arise AND in the mean time be really nice speakers for entertainment, playing with backing tracks, etc that I do with my guitars and my computer. I know that my price point IS a real limit to getting speakers big enough to really do the job, without a sub woofer, probably, but I hope I could add a sub woofer to make up the difference , down the road.

Now... what's a good Sound Card to pipe signal into these choices ! That's for another thread.

I have enjoyed the side info about speakers and room dynamics. I sort of already knew that could happen, but not to what extent it would effect the sound of speakers so close to my ears.

[Bobby1note]

I essentially agree with Herb here,,,,, and that doesn't mean I'm disagreeing with Joseph's point about room treatment.

Look,,,, there are multi-faceted issues here. Take for example the picture of Joseph's EQ settings,,,, what precisely does it tell you???? Are the corrections due to the "room",,,,,, what proportion of those corrections is due to the speakers themselves,,,,,,,and the crossovers,,,, what proportion is due to the quality and positioning of the measurement mic? etc. Even in a so-called "perfect" room, you can have issues, especially if you're moving about within that room, and sometimes, that "movement" can be as little as a few inches.

One example; some of the higher-end Focal monitors(over $2k/pair/ I don't recall the specific model names), about which I've seen much debate and praise on Gearslutz, etc. I decided to go have a listen for myself,,, in a professionally treated sound-room/recording studio. One physical characteristic of those Focals was an inverted-dome tweeter. Now, as long as I kept my head in a very specific "listening window" in front of those speakers, they sounded fine,,, but if I raised my head even 8" or more above my seated position, there was a very noticeable change in audio quality; essentially, I found them to be very "beamy".

When I listened to the Klein & Hummel 0 300's, the experience was a night and day difference,,,, and this was in a music store showroom,,,,, far from an ideally "treated" sound room. Simply put, they just sounded completely and utterly "natural",,, as if there was nothing between myself, and the originally recorded instruments, They were pure magic,,,, without beaminess,,,,,, no crossover distortion in evidence,,, and I could walk the room with virtually no drop-off in audio quality. In particular, the natural timbre of the low frequencies was astounding,,,, and the resolution of the high-end was completely transparent and open. These speakers are phenomenal performers.

[GuitarsFromMars]

Originally Posted by ChuckS

I only deal with acoustic guitar and sometimes vocals, so for me monitors with a 5" cone are ideal. In my price range the monitors with a 7" come sounded much more muddy. Regarding the stereo field, the Equator D5 design was done to optimize stereo imaging.

Not just imaging. The D5's also have proprietary DSP to keep the speakers in phase, and sounding good with well defined mids. Tannoy has been using a concentric tweeter for a very long time.

Ted Kefalo the designer was the guy who built KEF Audio.

[Herb Hunter]

Originally Posted by Herb Hunter

Are you saying that in an untreated room, monitors with a deliberately nonlinear frequency response are more likely to yield good recording mixes than those with a more accurate frequency response?

Originally Posted by Joseph Hanna

Maybe not likely but certainly very possible.

It is conceivable that a colored speaker’s output might improve where the room acoustics happen to attenuate an overemphasized frequency band while not adversely affecting the rest of the frequencies or may strengthen a weak lower bass response just enough to yield a flatter response. The odds are rather slim though that room acoustics will perfectly compliment a badly designed speaker system.

Be that as it may, your point about the role room acoustics play in shaping a speaker system’s sound is an important one. The room is, in effect, a component of the audio system.