Thermos bottles, coolers, and guitar cases

architectx · #1 08-03-2004, 09:49 AM

Well, had to travel a bit over the past weekend, and really wanted (almost needed) to take a guitar along with me. I knew going into the deal that it would mean about 6 or 7 hours of the guitar sitting in the car in a parking lot at one point.

So, after repeated weather checks and seeing high temps in the low 80s, I decided to go for it. I took all sorts of precautions (bought a reflector thing for the windshield, arrived early for a good shady parking spot, wrapped the case in a good sleeping bag, went out to the car middle of the day to run the AC, etc.). Good news - the guitar never got above 84 degrees, and it seems fine. Not that 84 isn't warm, and I wouldn't make a habit of it, but it was okay for this trip.

Then I got to thinking. Opened up my Pelican case where the video camera lives, and it was nice and cool inside. Lots of insulation in those airtight cases. Opened up the cooler - ice was still pretty much frozen, and it wasn't packed full. Opened up a thermos with juice for the kids in it - no ice, but it was nice and cool. So, why not design guitar cases to protect guitars from temperature swings? Would it really be difficult? I'd bet money that with a little engineering and some trial and error you could come up with something that would maintain interior tempurature for at least five or six hours. Any thoughts? Any engineering types feel like taking on a project like that?

Stixx · #2 08-03-2004, 10:31 AM

it would be a simple matter of making a one size fits all slip cover for the guitar case that was made of ballistic nylon with a water proof lining that would be filled with gel which can be frozen. Becase the gel doesn't stiffen when frozen you just roll it up stick it in the freezer then put it over the guitar case , zip it up and your guitar is happy in its regular case but the frozen layer outside is keeping the ambient temp from getting the guitar hot.

I left my OM and a Gibson in the back of the SuV at Herbs one morning and when I went out to get them after picking a while I realized the sun had come out and it was hot in the car. The Gibson had melted the pickguard all over the front of the guitar
but the Collings OM was fine though stressed , Im sure. Lesson learned . Never shut up a guitar in a car sitting in the sun. Even opening windows would have helped but it will cook one in a hurry.

architectx · #3 08-03-2004, 11:29 AM

Seriously - think about it.

Take your "basic" Calton case. Add another inch or two of a good closed cell foam insulation. Get a layer of reflective material somewhere facing inside the case (keeps the heat in on cold days). Separate that with a bit of insulation from a reflective layer facing out (keeps heat out on hot days). Go with a light colored reflective exterior surface. Make the case air tight. I guarantee you it would help a bunch.

I love nice guitars, but what's the point of having them if you can't take them with you to where you want to play them? Think about bluegrass festivals, family vacations, camping trips, or even stopping for a nice lunch somewhere while the guitar is in the car. Doesn't it make since to design a case as a thermal barrier in addition to it acting as an impact barrier?

Seems like a very elementary question to me, so maybe there's something really obvious that I'm overlooking here. But you know, I wonder all the time why most case coverings are black or brown. Sure, they don't show scuff marks, but they also gain a lot of heat. Anyone over compare a light colored reflective building roof to a black asphalt one? Here in the southeastern part of the country it can cut your cooling bills in half (at least).

Serenity · #4 08-03-2004, 12:29 PM

I think you'll find that your average guitar case tries to find a nice balance between bulk, wieght, protection and cost. Yeah, you could make a case that protects from heat or humidity but the question is...would you really want to carry it or pay for it?

Wally · #5 08-03-2004, 12:30 PM

Thermos bottles - the greatest invention of all time - keeps hot things hot and cold things cold - the real question is how does it know?

Seriously, look into a Small Dog case cover - not only do they protect your case but they also provide a blanket of insulation to help keep your baby a more uniform temperature.

Stixx - I really like the gel pac cover idea - if you ever market it I'll buy one.

Doc · #6 08-03-2004, 12:47 PM

Adding an "inch or two" to the exterior of a case would turn it into a cumbersome monster.

It's an amusing, but unpractical thought. Besides, that's exactly why God made case covers.

Peace.

Doc

bino · #7 08-08-2004, 04:34 PM

my thought is that, generally speaking, the current cases might be a bit of a buffer for temperature extremes and such. the only situation where it might not be benificial is in the case of an enclosed space getting really hot, then you remove the guitar and start to play outside. (does that make sense)? Otherwise, in the other 90% of the time, the case would allow the guitar to acclimate and get used to the conditions, instead of it rocketing from 18 degrees (celsius, sorry I'm canadian) to 30 degrees, all of a sudden. i dunno... it seems to make sense to me... plus I don't think I'd like to carry around some big igloo-case for my guitars, either!

Taylorplayer · #8 08-09-2004, 10:46 AM

To all:

I've posted about the insulating qualites of my SMALL DOG case cover before... with all the usual snickering in return (how about a cover for your cover...

).

Seriously, they do help with extremes in temperature. Only to a certain degree, of course. But that cover has worked for me in the "frozen north" and in the "sweltering south".

Just my 2 cents worth here

Ace43 · #9 08-10-2004, 06:46 AM

Surrounding the case with frozen gel is a lot like putting a dry guitar in the bathroom while you're taking a shower. It produces exactly the kind of danger you're trying to avoid----rapid change in temperature or humidity. I posted during the winter that a Taylor case kept outside at 30 degrees F warms to 70 degrees in two hours or 20 degrees per hour. That is NOT gradually acclimating a guitar to temperature extremes. It might seem gradual to us, but the glue, bracing, joints, and wood are a little pickier about change than we are. A case in a hot trunk will warm much quicker because of a wider difference between its ambient temperature and the interior of the car. Humidity tends not to change as quickly because it is dependent upon actual air exchange which is minimal in a good case. But extreme temperature change is really dangerous and the case provides little safety. As an example, if you were to receive a boxed guitar which arrived at 30 degrees F, the only way to treat it properly would be to leave it in the box for at least a day or two, preferably in a garage at 50 instead of ripping it out of the box and allowing the guitar to heat up to ambient temperature in two hours. It may be hard to wait that long but if you had a microphone in the case you could probably hear the braces creaking as it warmed up. Forewarned is forearmed!

Thin Crust · #10 08-10-2004, 08:20 AM

Or a Colorado Case Cover. Although my experience with the company was less than ideal, they do make a good product.

architectx · #11 08-10-2004, 08:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ace43

. . .I posted during the winter that a Taylor case kept outside at 30 degrees F warms to 70 degrees in two hours or 20 degrees per hour. . . . . A case in a hot trunk will warm much quicker because of a wider difference between its ambient temperature and the interior of the car. . . . . It may be hard to wait that long but if you had a microphone in the case you could probably hear the braces creaking as it warmed up. Forewarned is forearmed!

Ace43 is right on the money here. Guess the thought of an insulating case seems kind of silly to a lot of folks, but it really doesn't to me.

Several of you good folks know that I recently built a new house for the family. It isn't all that large by today's standards, but it is much more spacious than what we're used to. I took great care when designing the house to build it in such a manner that it is most energy efficient. I paid a lot of attention to the color of materials used as well as the insulating value of the walls, roof, and other components. You know what? It paid off. Our highest utility bills to date are less than half of what they were at the old house - and we've got double the floor space and probably triple the volume (lots of two story open space).

Is a guitar case really that much different than the "shell" of a house? I don't think it is. On another front - Nasa and the US Navy build "suits" for folks that can keep them warm in sub zero temperatures in space or in extreme depths. The suits are still manageable as clothing.

Some of us probably never travel with our guitars. They sit at home, they now and then hop in the car for a trip to a lesson, a jam, a local gig, etc. On the other hand, some of us drive around the country for pleasure or for work. A lucky few of us travel with our instruments professionaly. Some of us might take a now and then vacation with the family and we'd like to bring the guitar along. Most of these circumstances dictate less than ideal conditions for the guitar at some point. Wouldn't it make good sense to have a case that could withstand at least a little bit of "temperature abuse"?

Why are most cases dark in color - what in the world is up with that? Take two identical cars, except one is black and one is white. Park them side by side in the same parking lot. I'd bet money the white car is at least 20 degrees cooler inside at the end of the day. Tint the windows, add a reflective "thingy" in the windshield, add a bit of insulation in the roof, and it's going to be more than 20 degrees cooler. Why not do the same thing with guitar cases?

I'd be more than willing to cart around an extra few pounds and inches in bulk if the case really worked. I'd even seriously think about trying to come up with a design for such a case if there might be any kind of market for it. Do you good folks really think it is just an "amusing idea"? I'm sure it could be made to work with enough thought. I guess the question is would anyone buy into it?

darkwing · #12 08-11-2004, 06:55 AM

Seems to me with today's technology, that a thin, perhaps barely noticeable layer coule be sandwiched in somehow.....it would add to the expense, but it could always be marketed as a "premium" model......the bigger question is, of course, whether or not there would be enough of a market for it. Hmm.....

Ace43 · #13 08-11-2004, 12:23 PM

What material is there which could be "sandwiched" into the construction of a guitar case, is light, inexpensive, and which rapidly slows down the transmission of heat from the outer to the inner layers which are sandwiching it? I can't think of any and that is why the idea, good as it is, won't work. Now, I COULD get to work on this and design an active temperature maintenance system, like I did for humidity control in my guitar room (the windmill powered one that got tore up by the last hurricane through here) but it would probably require a tiny nuclear reactor installed in the case, a pickup truck transported condenser, and a small diesel generator. That might make it impractical.

Randal_S · #14 08-11-2004, 12:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by architectx

Why are most cases dark in color - what in the world is up with that?

I'm guessing that a black case will hide scuffs better than a white one. Other than that, maybe it's part of the "rugged outlaw" image that carrying a guitar may sometimes give. Black is just "tougher" than white, no? After all, wouldn't your local tough-guy biker gang look kinda silly in white leather motorcycle jackets?

Stixx · #15 08-11-2004, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by architectx

Ace43 is right on the money here. Guess the thought of an insulating case seems kind of silly to a lot of folks, but it really doesn't to me.

Several of you good folks know that I recently built a new house for the family. It isn't all that large by today's standards, but it is much more spacious than what we're used to. I took great care when designing the house to build it in such a manner that it is most energy efficient. I paid a lot of attention to the color of materials used as well as the insulating value of the walls, roof, and other components. You know what? It paid off. Our highest utility bills to date are less than half of what they were at the old house - and we've got double the floor space and probably triple the volume (lots of two story open space).

Is a guitar case really that much different than the "shell" of a house? I don't think it is. On another front - Nasa and the US Navy build "suits" for folks that can keep them warm in sub zero temperatures in space or in extreme depths. The suits are still manageable as clothing.

Some of us probably never travel with our guitars. They sit at home, they now and then hop in the car for a trip to a lesson, a jam, a local gig, etc. On the other hand, some of us drive around the country for pleasure or for work. A lucky few of us travel with our instruments professionaly. Some of us might take a now and then vacation with the family and we'd like to bring the guitar along. Most of these circumstances dictate less than ideal conditions for the guitar at some point. Wouldn't it make good sense to have a case that could withstand at least a little bit of "temperature abuse"?

Why are most cases dark in color - what in the world is up with that? Take two identical cars, except one is black and one is white. Park them side by side in the same parking lot. I'd bet money the white car is at least 20 degrees cooler inside at the end of the day. Tint the windows, add a reflective "thingy" in the windshield, add a bit of insulation in the roof, and it's going to be more than 20 degrees cooler. Why not do the same thing with guitar cases?

I'd be more than willing to cart around an extra few pounds and inches in bulk if the case really worked. I'd even seriously think about trying to come up with a design for such a case if there might be any kind of market for it. Do you good folks really think it is just an "amusing idea"? I'm sure it could be made to work with enough thought. I guess the question is would anyone buy into it?

Ok Trey, here you go. Since my original idea of the gel is not practical because of all the reasons stated here is my second attemptl

First of all this is not going to be able to be the case you keep it in every day. If you start with what you got its'already too heavy to add anything to and still lbe manageable.
'
That said the only thing to do is make a "Thermo plastic ''cool case'' from the get go with two things in mind, Insulatory qualites and light weight.

Second nothing will eventually be able to withstand the kind of temperature a car can generate left un ventalated in the summer heat . People have unwittingly died in car trunks and such so we know wood ain't gonna like it either.

So the object it seems to me is ventilation. So you design the case to take the outside temperature and suck the heat out of it just like a heat pump does in reverse when you design an air conditioner.

So using logic and miniaturization , you design a very light colored , light weight materal to make the case from and all the insuing padding inside that makes a soft bed for the guitar would also be an open cell foam designed with air passages throughout much like any fundamential insulation.

Air is the best insulater when caprtured . Also by using outside ambient air , you have a tube for intake of air that is placed in the sade underneath the car in the shade . Then a little fan moter sucks the cooler outside air and releasles it all into the lightwieth silver colored case which has been placed in the rear seat or luggage area of the suv with any and all shades over it . The car should be ventillated as well , Many have small rear vent windows , I know mine do that open enough for air. The moon roof should definitly be open and then the air moving over the guitar will no doubt heat it up a LOT but no where near the extreme of a closed black case in the back of a sun drenched closed car in summer sun. In other words you minimize the potential damage and know that the guitar will be comfortable up to abour 90 degrees farenheight. It will tolerate more for short times as mine has once but the air moving over it from outside source and the insulated case which would hold in as much of the cooler air should do it .

A miniature AC pump could be made as well that would run off the car battery but my guess the case would cost more than a new gutiar . LOL