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  #16  
Old 01-14-2017, 01:34 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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EllaMom said: Arthur Blake, you just gave me another Homer Simpson "D'oh!" moment: From frets 1 through 12 on each string you only find them once.

Why did I not realize that before?

-------

I said this in my post above:

You know that between the open string and the 12th fret is an octave and that each note occurs once in an octave. There are 12 chromatic notes in the octave (12 frets).

Didn't anybody read that?

Tony
Sorry...rereading this, it sounds a bit harsh, which was not my intention. I am curious when I see this in threads - somebody says something, then a number of posts later, somebody else says the same thing and suddenly it is insightful, where the first time it was said, it went unnoticed. I have seen this enough times to make it seem worthwhile to comment on, rather than that I feel it only happened to me. It is just one of those curious aspects of forums, I guess. It seems as if people don't really read the posts that came before.

Oh, one other thing...EllaMom, don't you take lessons from Steven King? What is his take on learning the fretboard?

Tony
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  #17  
Old 01-14-2017, 01:47 PM
EllaMom EllaMom is offline
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Tony, I did read that you said each string covers one octave thru the 12th fret. But I only just scanned it, so didn't 'translate' that in my mind to this: .....which MEANS each note only appears once on each string thru the 12th fret. I took piano as a kid, but did not retain the simple fact that there are 12 notes in an octave.

I love these little 'epiphanettes'! 😀
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  #18  
Old 01-14-2017, 01:52 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by EllaMom View Post
Tony, I did read that you said each string covers one octave thru the 12th fret. But I only just scanned it, so didn't 'translate' that in my mind to this: .....which MEANS each note only appears once on each string thru the 12th fret. I took piano as a kid, but did not retain the simple fact that there are 12 notes in an octave.

I love these little 'epiphanettes'! 😀
Yes, those make reading the forums somewhat like panning for gold.

Tony
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  #19  
Old 01-14-2017, 02:09 PM
ridethewind ridethewind is offline
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In Ted Greene's "Chord Chemistry", he provides a very simple method, similar to what AmyFB posted. I have posted this here in years past, in response to this question, but oddly people seem to want to make things more complicated and my post has typically been ignored. Anyway, here it is again. Note that describing in words here makes it sound more complicated than it is. Some things are like that. If you actually follow through with this, you will soon see how simple it really is. You don't need books to show you how to learn the fretboard. The fretboard is its own guide, once you learn how to approach it.

Every day do the following...

1. Pick a note at random on the fretboard - look away and just plop a finger down somewhere on the fretboard.
2. Determine what that note is (more on that in a moment).
3. Starting on the 6th string, find that note at its first (lowest) occurrence, and continue finding that note along each string in turn, from that lowest note on the 6th string to the highest on the 1st string.
4. Starting from that highest note on the 1st string, work in reverse along each string back down to where you started with the lowest note on the 6th string.

If you pick just one note each day and do this every day, over the span of a couple of weeks, you will be seeing the fretboard as clearly as we do the piano keyboard. Once you are comfortable with this exercise, you can start finding specific chords or scales all over the fretboard as a way of expanding the exercise. I prefer small chord voicings of 3 or 4 strings at most, and scales of one octave in length because smaller voicings are more flexible than those big 6 string versions.

If you know how to build the various scales and chords (i.e. their "templates"), you can now build these anywhere on the fretboard, and no longer need systems such as the CAGED system or chord dictionaries.

I do this exercise every day to keep the fretboard clearly in mind. It only takes about 30 seconds now. I think it took probably 5 minutes or so when I first started doing this.

A cool thing about this exercise is that if you have decided to standardize on a different tuning, as Pierre Bensusan does, you can still do this exercise for whatever tuning you chose, though the following information about determiningg the notes will probably not work as described. You can come up with your own method for a given tuning though.

Determining what the note is that you found (step 2)...

You know the notes of the open strings (E A D G B E) and that these repeat at the 12th fret an octave higher than the open string.

You know that between the open string and the 12th fret is an octave and that each note occurs once in an octave. There are 12 chromatic notes in the octave (12 frets).

You know how to tune your guitar by ear - comparing the lower string at the 5th fret to the next higher adjacent string open (except the 3rd string at the 4th fret to the 2nd string). So you know what those notes are. With this, you have effectively divided the fretboard in half, so you can quickly determine if your note is in the lower or upper half of the string.

If all else fails, you can count up from the open string in half steps or down from the 12th fret in half steps to find the note.

Tony


Thank you for posting this again.


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  #20  
Old 01-14-2017, 02:29 PM
EllaMom EllaMom is offline
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Tony, I have been taking lessons with Steven, but because of a number of factors (holidays, snow and more snow, and other things not worth mentioning) I haven't had a lesson in a couple of months. Love Steven ... great guy!
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  #21  
Old 01-14-2017, 05:39 PM
FwL FwL is offline
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Learn the C major scale up and down each string. Name the notes as you play them. Practice that for a week or two. Then move one key clockwise on the circle of 5ths (G major). Practice that for a week or two.

From there, you can go one more key clockwise (D major) or go one key counterclockwise from C (F major).

As you work clockwise around the circle of 5ths, each new key adds one sharp. As you work counterclockwise, each new key adds one flat.

Done this way, you'll be learning where the note are located on the fingerboard as well as the major scale in all keys along with the key signature of each.

That's a lot of bang for the buck.

Eventually you'll want to work out the scales across the neck in positions as well.
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  #22  
Old 01-14-2017, 06:00 PM
EllaMom EllaMom is offline
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FwL, I'm learning the scales, but in the first position, to memorize the fretboard, rather than up and down the string. I wonder what the pros/cons are for choosing one over the other first.

And here's a sort-of related question: How many old-time guitarists (think blues players from the 30s, for example) knew the names of the notes or chords they were playing? For some reason I had the impression that at least of them sort of 'figured out' in an organic way what notes sounded good together, what ones didn't, and developed their skills from there. I'm guessing that many of them didn't have books, teachers/lessons, at least not formally. Maybe I'm wrong about that tho.... hmmmm....
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  #23  
Old 01-14-2017, 06:33 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by ridethewind View Post
Thank you for posting this again.


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Thank you!

Tony
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  #24  
Old 01-14-2017, 06:38 PM
tbeltrans tbeltrans is offline
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Originally Posted by EllaMom View Post
FwL, I'm learning the scales, but in the first position, to memorize the fretboard, rather than up and down the string. I wonder what the pros/cons are for choosing one over the other first.

And here's a sort-of related question: How many old-time guitarists (think blues players from the 30s, for example) knew the names of the notes or chords they were playing? For some reason I had the impression that at least of them sort of 'figured out' in an organic way what notes sounded good together, what ones didn't, and developed their skills from there. I'm guessing that many of them didn't have books, teachers/lessons, at least not formally. Maybe I'm wrong about that tho.... hmmmm....
They had DVDs. If they deny that, they are just being humble.

I suspect you are right about that. But then, many of us here are playing around with multiple styles and going in several directions. The blues guys had fairly strict song forms that would have limited the possibilities, so learning just a couple of chords in a couple of keys and some licks, probably got them a long way.

Knowing the notes on the fretboard such that I can pick a note anywhere and quickly name it, really helps with anything I am studying, whether doing it by ear, or notation, or making something up. It is a very fundamental skill that informs everything I do on the guitar in standard tuning. If I play in alternate tunings, I don't bother with that unless I intend to stay in a tuning long enough to get a payoff from the effort. So far, standard tuning allows me to do pretty much what I want, though fooling around in an open or alternate tuning on occasion is fun and can provide a new perspective.

Tony
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  #25  
Old 01-14-2017, 07:12 PM
FwL FwL is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by EllaMom View Post
FwL, I'm learning the scales, but in the first position, to memorize the fretboard, rather than up and down the string. I wonder what the pros/cons are for choosing one over the other first.

And here's a sort-of related question: How many old-time guitarists (think blues players from the 30s, for example) knew the names of the notes or chords they were playing? For some reason I had the impression that at least of them sort of 'figured out' in an organic way what notes sounded good together, what ones didn't, and developed their skills from there. I'm guessing that many of them didn't have books, teachers/lessons, at least not formally. Maybe I'm wrong about that tho.... hmmmm....


Learning scale positions first usually involves merely memorizing a shape or pattern of notes. Most people (including myself) who learn this way end up stuck in patterns instead of being free to go wherever the music would take you.

Then you end up spending a lot of time trying to break free.

If I had it to do over again I'd spend a lot of time early on working up and down the strings rather than memorizing patterns across the strings.
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  #26  
Old 01-14-2017, 10:28 PM
Ruark Ruark is offline
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Don't forget notes on paper, i.e. sheet music. Point at a note on the staff, Instantly play it all 9ver the neck.
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  #27  
Old 01-15-2017, 08:30 AM
FwL FwL is offline
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Don't forget notes on paper, i.e. sheet music. Point at a note on the staff, Instantly play it all 9ver the neck.


Speaking of paper. When I first decided to learn the fingerboard I thought it would be a good idea to draw a neck diagram with all the notes. That way I could just look at the diagram if I needed to find a note.

By the time I had all the notes filled in on the diagram, I realized that I didn't need the diagram anymore. I was already seeing the pattern of how notes lay out on the fingerboard.

A big revelation for me was seeing that the octave of any note is always sitting 2 strings over and 2 frets up.... unless you cross the B string. Everything moves up one fret when you cross the B string.

It was just a matter of days and I was starting to pick out other intervals and seeing how they're always sitting in the same locations as well.

I already new how to read pretty well from years of trumpet and baritone horn in school band, but your suggestion is a good one for somebody just learning.
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  #28  
Old 01-23-2017, 11:45 AM
MikeBodd MikeBodd is offline
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I find it a lot easier to sit in front of my piano. I then know the top string pretty well. Still getting there with the full fret board.
Any ideas or tips on getting started with fingerstyle? Should I get very solid with tab first? Or will that come with time? Right now I can play and strum along to most songs. Barre chords are no prob either. Especially since having all my guitars set up really well.
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  #29  
Old 01-24-2017, 05:11 AM
Shimmy Shimmy is offline
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Lot's of really good advice here. I just wanted to say that learning where the notes are is important, but we shouldn't be too quick to dismiss patterns, or "systems", be it CAGED or any other. The guitar is a visual instrument to some degree, which is why there are plenty of very musical, virtuosic players who don't think about note names when playing or can even name the chords they are playing over. Just knowing the notes will not necessarily give you any more freedom.

What they have, though, is very developed ears and a strong relationship with what they hear to the sounds on the guitar. Try this: put on, or better yet record, a simple chord progression of maybe four or so chords. Pick a starting note for the first chord. Now, when the chords changes, can you instinctively find the nearest suitable note to play over the next chord by hearing it in your head and then playing it? It will either be a note a semitone/tone either side of the note you're playing or maybe even staying on the note. This is a basic skill that when developed to long, coherent musical phrases means you will think less in note names or patterns and more in music.

So my advice is, learn where the notes are, learn whatever system of mapping the fretboard until you can do it without much thought... but for those who want that "freedom" when playing, work on your ears and relating what you hear to the fretboard. If thinking about the name of the note you're playing is louder in your head than anticipating what you want to hear, you're no more free than someone thinking in a CAGED position.
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  #30  
Old 01-24-2017, 06:25 PM
EllaMom EllaMom is offline
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Shimmy, you articulated very well what I've been thinking and perhaps even tried to say in an previous post about early blues players. I'm guessing they didn't know the names of notes. They just knew where to find the "right" notes on the fretboard. Was it by rote memorization of where the "right" notes are on the fretboard (which doesn't imply knowing their names) or was it by figuring out certain patterns?

I can't help but think that eventually the decision of what to play next, when improvising, is somewhat automatic. Kind of like driving a car with a clutch and knowing when to engage and release the clutch when shifting gears. It becomes a kind of muscle memory.

Well.....my muscles are very slow learners. That's all I know at this point!
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