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  #16  
Old 05-14-2010, 12:32 PM
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KevWind KevWind is online now
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As with alohachris I also use an I-mac and am quite pleased. The only DAW I have ever used is PTLE. Unlike alohachris I started with a mac and protools. I have since 2003 had almost no trouble with PTLE perhaps due to, not running it on a PC. What little problems I have had has been all operator error. There is indeed much more to the DAWs capabilities than I will use. For the most part I record 2-4 Gtr tracks and usually 2 vocal tracks. I do use some processing, however I use the bundled DiGi 4 and 7 Band graphic EQ for subtractive EQ only. and have now started to use a delay on some of the gtr riffs that I sprinkle in. I have also played around with some samples in the form of strings and flute. I would guess that Logic would have the same type of eqs.
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  #17  
Old 05-14-2010, 02:17 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Default Aloha Kev, Howzit?

Aloha KevWind,

Howzit? Been awhile. I've been busy woodshedding this newfangled recording rig. Slow going but decent results so far.

Ya know, it's apples and oranges regarding DAWS. Whatever feels right is the one you go with and should probably stay with. It's so easy to try them out but I don't think many players do it.

For me, I'd always assumed that I'd go with PTLE for my archiving project when it came time to build a recording rig. However, several issues and reasons appeared in the process that ultimately made the switch to Logic Pro 9 & an iMac for me:

- PTLE 8 and my PC I had were not very compatible = constant error messages, though it was on Digi's "compatible" list

- Digidesign's attitude in trying to "help" me find solutions was very condescending and even blameful, not just one guy either, always telling me to "UPGRADE!"

- The used 003 I'd bought totally crapped out almost ASAP, getting me to rethink the need for even using Digi's not-so-great interfaces (dongle's really) at all. All of them need interface and preamp add-ons to sound great - added expense - plus you MUST use them to use PTLE, not always the most practical choice, especially for field recording.

- The MBox 2 I tried sounded absolutely terrible, and was poorly made, IMO.

- Hands-on research, trying out many DAWS, and respected opinions demonstrated to me that PTLE aint no PTHD, that it's "light edition" limitations and compatibility issues with so many plug-in manufacturers, even "track-count to crash" ratio - weren't going to cut it for me. I was looking for a full service, pro DAW

- In order to get a fully featured, Pro Digi DAW, I'd have to move up to PTHD, which is way too expensive for me & not what I need/want for my non-commercial purposes & still have to get a new 003 plus a better interface, better clock & better preamps to use it with decent results.

- A friend allowed me to try out his iMac/Logic/Duet rig - and it just made more sense to my way of thinking and doing things. And it worked flawlessly, without $ upgrades. The Duet's a gem!

Those circumstances may not happen for many people here who use PTLE, but that was my experience of it - and solution.

In the end Kev, I actually called back that Digi Jerk and told him that indeed I had upgraded - to an iMac & Logic Pro 9. He hung up on me.

But as I said, it's just apples and oranges. Whatever works for you, right? Most studios have Logic & HD for difference tasks. Most guitar players find that tracking's easier & better in Logic than PTLE, and editing is superior in PTHD. But Logic has everything you could want and costs under $500, not $8K+ for HD!

Haven't needed an Ensemble, but have read about the minor issues that a very few have with it. But I still think a used Ensemble or ULN-8 would be worth the wait and expense over ANY of the readily affordable multi-tracking M-Audio, Presonus, Lexicon Omega or Digidesign interfaces, wouldn't you agree? It's all about sound!

This is my last vacation day. Back to the warehouse next week. I'm off to Ala Moana bowls now for a little surf session then a sunset gig tonight in town. All the best, KevWind.

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

Last edited by alohachris; 05-14-2010 at 02:24 PM.
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  #18  
Old 05-14-2010, 03:56 PM
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Alohachris hey good to hear from ya and no need really to explain why you chose logic. If I were starting out now instead of wayyyyyyy back in 2003 I might do the same. and I agree the that UNL8 apears to be quite a unit. I was simply relating that for what ever reason, mac or karma I have had really good performance from my DiGi 002. I completely agree that the pres and the converters in the 002 and 003 are not up to the par of the software. Interestingly enough I understand that the pres in those units are Focusrite. That's why as you mention, I have gone on to an outboard pre and an Apogee Rosetta 200 (better conversion and clocking IMO) I do agree that being stuck with DiGi Hardware is not what I would prefer. The rumor mill is now saying Digi may in the near future be coming out with a native based HD system but its only a rumor so far. I cannot for the life of me understand why people even bother to get so adamant about a particular DAW, what ever works for somebody is the one to use. For me they are really just a tape machine with the convenience of digital editing.
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  #19  
Old 05-14-2010, 04:49 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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I completely agree that the pres and the converters in the 002 and 003 are not up to the par of the software.
OK KevWind I can only hold my tongue for so long Please understand that my comments are not directed at you in particular but more the entire thread

The Digi LE pre-amps have been forum battered and bruised since the original 001. They deserve very little of the constant battering they take and in fact some MAJOR retail distributors have done endless, and in the end comical, blind tests where even the most critical listeners are unable to distinguish just what is what. Can you articulate, specifically and exactly how sonically the 003 pre's are not up to par? I work at recording for a living and "pre's" in general are a significant component of what I do. I've used the M-Box Pro's pre-amps on a number of occasions and always felt that they were as good if not at times better than the racks of pre's in our bays.


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Interestingly enough I understand that the pres in those units are Focusrite.
Digi had a very brief and VERY volatile relationship with Focusrite in the early 2000's. Originally Focusrite wanted to ride Digi's recent success and long coat tails into some organized North American distributorship network. Digi of course saw a small hardware manufacturer that perhaps over the long haul could supplement future Digi hardware endeavors. That was roughly the time the original "blue" m-box was on the drawling board. I was there at the time and where I recall someone mentioning that Focusrite lent a hand with some very peripheral suggestions as to pre-amp implementation it did NOT go much further than that...on any level. The relationship ended um...abruptly.

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That's why as you mention, I have gone on to an outboard pre and an Apogee Rosetta 200 (better conversion and clocking IMO) I do agree that being stuck with DiGi Hardware is not what I would prefer.
Your new outboard pre and certainly the Rosetta are, I'm sure, great devices. I've had some very good friends in the past at Apogee and I know them as very viable and knowledgeable players in the audio world. That said we did endless and exhausting testing in the 5 or 6 years I was in that position. We always came to the conclusion that in the most perfect and critical testing studios with the absolute best engineers available on the west coast there was "on some days" a slight difference between Digi's converters/clocks and Apogees converters/clocks....at best. We of course NEVER walked away from any test not being totally impressed with the Apogee stuff but we always wondered how so many M-Box/basement studio users had grown such enormously sensitive ears as to be critical of Digi pres and converters which by our judgment where incredible bargins and the margin of sonic differences negated by the average home/project studio environment.

In the end you'll hear what it is YOU want to hear. The moment you invest $1000.00 in Apogee equipment you can rest assured that you're gonna hear a difference. Not so however for those that are just starting out. The thought of high end Apogee converters and clocks in a typical bedroom or basement studio fraught with unsolvable acoustic flaws is comical and wholly NOT necessary. It's an advantage that quite frankly VERY few will ever be able to actually hear and less actually convert to noticeable sonic improvements to a listener.

Everyone should investigate and purchase WHATEVER it is that they deem as right for them. That is of course part of the fun. But for the beginner guys who might invest in hardware needlessly when in fact so many ducks are not and most likely won't be in a row seems to be the inevitable cart before the horse.

The pre's and converters in the Digi 003 are in fact better than most will ever have the environment to take advantage of.
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Old 05-14-2010, 08:14 PM
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=Joseph Hanna;2225535]OK KevWind
The Digi LE pre-amps have been forum battered and bruised since the original 001. They deserve very little of the constant battering they take and in fact some MAJOR retail distributors have done endless, and in the end comical, blind tests where even the most critical listeners are unable to distinguish just what is what.
No doubt, and you do make some very good points that people might want to consider. However unfortunately I haven't heard any of these test you are referring to. I do know that if those Major retailers conducted those tests in their stores, I have no doubt the situation was comical. I have tried in vain to do some critical listening in GC for example it was quite impossible. " Even if those test were done in favorable sonic situations the "the most critical listeners" part means what exactly?
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Can you articulate, specifically and exactly how sonically the 003 pre's are not up to par?
Be glad to. First I said up to the par of the software or perhaps I should have said potential of what the PTLE software was capable of reproducing. However In my basement studio. (see pic below) the tracks I recorded straight int the 002 as compared to those tracked thru the outboard pre (A Designs MP2A) and the Rosetta to my ears lacked in both depth and width comparatively. Granted not by life changeing amounts but I felt it was indeed noticeable. Could it be buyer prejudice? or justification syndrome? Very possible. I did a lot of "Critical listening" as you might call it in the 5 years I spent selling and installing Hi Fidelity stereo equipment so I gotta go with my ears but as you state later, don't we all ? Also I think I was fairly clear with my IMOs



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Digi had a very brief and VERY volatile relationship with Focusrite in the early 2000's. Originally Focusrite wanted to ride Digi's recent success and long coat tails into some organized North American distributorship network. Digi of course saw a small hardware manufacturer that perhaps over the long haul could supplement future Digi hardware endeavors. That was roughly the time the original "blue" m-box was on the drawling board. I was there at the time and where I recall someone mentioning that Focusrite lent a hand with some very peripheral suggestions as to pre-amp implementation it did NOT go much further than that...on any level. The relationship ended um...abruptly.
Could be !! I don't know personally. I do know what I was told by the retailer from whom I purchased the 002 " "these are focusrite pres in here" late 2002.


Quote:
Your new outboard pre and certainly the Rosetta are, I'm sure, great devices. I've had some very good friends in the past at Apogee and I know them as very viable and knowledgeable players in the audio world. That said we did endless and exhausting testing in the 5 or 6 years I was in that position. We always came to the conclusion that in the most perfect and critical testing studios with the absolute best engineers available on the west coast there was "on some days" a slight difference between Digi's converters/clocks and Apogees converters/clocks....at best. We of course NEVER walked away from any test not being totally impressed with the Apogee stuff but we always wondered how so many M-Box/basement studio users had grown such enormously sensitive ears as to be critical of Digi pres and converters which by our judgment where incredible bargins and the margin of sonic differences negated by the average home/project studio environment.
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In the end you'll hear what it is YOU want to hear. The moment you invest $1000.00 in Apogee equipment you can rest assured that you're gonna hear a difference.
Yes indeed ( buyer justification) this one gets about as much forum air play as bashing digi pres and converters does it not.? Another question that then comes mind is: In your opinion, would this then render the claims and upgrades from Black Lion specious and a sham ?
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The thought of high end Apogee converters and clocks in a typical bedroom or basement studio fraught with unsolvable acoustic flaws is comical and wholly NOT necessary.
Quite, if the acoustic are indeed actually unsolvable. then that well might be the case
Quote:
It's an advantage that quite frankly VERY few will ever be able to actually hear and less actually convert to noticeable sonic improvements to a listener.
OK Joseph, I realize you are attempting to place this in perspective, from your prospective and much of what you state is very likely the case. But the other side of the coin might be, that its not necessarily categorically true. From another perspective could this be viewed as fairly sweeping general assumption, proffered in the thought that only pros in hundred thousand dollar rooms can have good ears? or can realize the benefits from the sonics of high end gear?
Really I am not trying to argue because I believe you are genuinely attempting to suggest that for many people in many situations the Digi pres are more than adequate and they may not be best served by expensive outboard gear. With this I would agree completely . T Situations do change however and as you say below
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."Everyone should investigate and purchase WHATEVER it is that they deem as right for them" But for the beginner guys who might invest in hardware needlessly when in fact so many ducks are not and most likely won't be in a row seems to be the inevitable cart before the horse.
no disagreement here that room acoustics are quite important and should be something done at the get go. I think what both alohachris and myself were pointing out in terms recording a guitar and vocals and for possible longer term use into the future.That two higher end channels might be a better investment that 6 or 8 entry level channels.
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The pre's and converters in the Digi 003 are in fact better than most will ever have the environment to take advantage of.
Perhaps, perhaps not. You say the DiGi pre are at or close to high end. However Black Lion has made a business out of saying, not so. Again this seems to assume most will not evolve into having better acoustics or develop more critical listening skills. One thought comes to mind though, remember when one looks at the Lists of Guitars on this sight there indeed seems to be a penchant for spending fairly good amounts of $ on something deemed worthwhile for sonics. Yet one can only play one at a time.
The Basement studio as you can see at least a prelim attempt to tame the acousticts
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Last edited by KevWind; 05-15-2010 at 07:27 AM.
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  #21  
Old 05-15-2010, 10:28 AM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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I do know that if those Major retailers conducted those tests in their stores, I have no doubt the situation was comical. I have tried in vain to do some critical listening in GC for example it was quite impossible. " Even if those test were done in favorable sonic situations the "the most critical listeners" part means what exactly?
Hey KevWind!

I'd never be so thoughtless as to proffer a test conducted at a local GC as proof to anything. That just silly The test's (there were several) were conducted and recorded in San Francisco, The idea was to take several single sonic sources and record them through various pre amps in an extreme controlled environment. The test were also done with various microphones as well. Initially the CD was then played for various well known engineers. They were given a list of what pre amps were used but not which take was associated with what pre's. They were then asked to verbally describe what they liked and disliked about each and which of course was their favorite of all.

These CD's were later used in training at at least one hi-end retailer (Sweetwater).

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Could be !! I don't know personally. I do know what I was told by the retailer from whom I purchased the 002 " "these are focusrite pres in here" late 2002.
Kev... I don't doubt that what some sales guy said but in truth it's utter mis-information


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Another question that then comes mind is: In your opinion, would this then render the claims and upgrades from Black Lion specious and a sham ?
Well yes and no. I don't doubt that the BlacK Lion folks can jump into a Digi 003 and tighten things up. The problem with all of that is for the target consumer, the home and project guy, are these "upgrades" of any significant sonic value? We recently borrowed one of the new Aardvark clocks and invited an old friend into the studio (which he had previously been employed) to listen to the new clock. He was gushing and overwhelmed with what that clock did. The biggest sonic improvement to HD systems he heard in years. You of course already know where this is going as the clock was NOT plugged in.

The average guy that sends his 003 to Black Lion is looking for the quick "money" fix. Most guys I've encountered at that stage of their mixing career are utterly unable to explain even fundamental eq and or compression parameters but they're sending their 003 off because current forum wives tale banter tell of mystical and magical improvements and "all ya gotta do is spent money"



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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
But the other side of the coin might be, that its not necessarily categorically true. From another perspective could this be viewed as fairly sweeping general assumption, proffered in the thought that only pros in hundred thousand dollar rooms can have good ears? or can realize the benefits from the sonics of high end gear?
Yes, yes, yes of course. There are thousands of guys and gals out there with mad skills as audio engineers that do it for a hobby only. None of this applies to that group but in the grand scheme of things they are in the VAST minority. Most home project folk seem compelled to chase good mixes with ill spent money. A Black Lion Mod is pointless for the guy in a square room with drywall and concrete floors.

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Originally Posted by KevWind View Post
Really I am not trying to argue because I believe you are genuinely attempting to suggest that for many people in many situations the Digi pres are more than adequate and they may not be best served by expensive outboard gear. With this I would agree completely
No you have nothing but valid points. I agree with more than you think. That said it's the web based forum misconceptions and perpetuations that drive me utterly insane.

I honestly don't mind a guy sending his 003 off to Black Lion if he's first aware that it will by NO means make his recording sound better if his recordings don't already some great.
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  #22  
Old 05-15-2010, 11:09 AM
Pokiehat Pokiehat is offline
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First, professionals can be and often are wrong. Their station has no bearing on whether they are factually correct or not and believing so is a fallacy called 'authority belief'. "When men are established in any kind of dignity, it is thought a breach of modesty for others to derogate any way from it, and question the authority of men who are in possession of it."

Second, a clock circuit has only one job and that is to generate a regular stream of pulses with the smallest variance possible between them and the duration of each pulse. That variance is better known as jitter and it is a time domain error. The design of oscillators and clock circuits is very well understood and much information about it is publicly available on the internet should you want to know more about it and the impact that poor clock circuit design can have in an audio signal chain.

Third, if you go down that road you will be entertaining concepts and conducting research which is fundamentally to do with engineering problems and they invariably have solutions that are a matter of engineering consideration. These are not problems that musicians need to worry about.

Fourth, professional studios have other considerations other than just sound quality. People that work in professional audio production can choose to buy into the nonsense or not but you should keep those opinions to yourself. The fact is some clients are wowed when they see racks full of Neve signal processors and Lavry converters but what they are really paying for is expertise whether they realise that or not. It doesn't really matter what the producer uses as long as they know what they are doing although it is comforting to believe that all your problems as a musician and a producer can be solved with a magical metal box that just make everything 'right'.

Am I saying that its a waste of money to buy Lavry converters? No. You will note that Dan Lavry does not and will not tell you his converters sound better than anyone elses. He will tell you how he keeps jitter low in his clock design. He can tell you how much latency you will get for a given sampling rate. In short, if you ask him an engineering question he will give you engineering solutions. Now, if you want we can do this discussion properly or we can drop it completely because the biggest problem with internet talk about these matters is the amount of misinformation being spread around. I genuinely feel bad for the folks who can't be expected to know any better and are getting educated by people that don't know any better themselves. It is irresponsible and very harmful to the new generation who will carry the torch when we are done.

Last edited by Pokiehat; 05-15-2010 at 11:31 AM.
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  #23  
Old 05-15-2010, 02:47 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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I genuinely feel bad for the folks who can't be expected to know any better and are getting educated by people that don't know any better themselves. It is irresponsible and very harmful to the new generation who will carry the torch when we are done.
Really??? Is this directed at me?
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Old 05-15-2010, 04:08 PM
Pokiehat Pokiehat is offline
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No. It was meant to be taken generally in regards to what I think is something of an epidemic on music/production forums. This thread is moving on to a point where things are being said that none of us really have the engineering knowledge to answer satisfactorily and so out comes the anecdotal evidence.

Things like clocking are problems for the people who develop converters. Its not something consumers should ever have to think about. For instance I've seen some people slaving their converters to an external clock and swear blind that it makes their tracks sound 'better'. Then they go on to advise others to buy an external clock to improve their conversion which is dubious advice at best.

I'm just saying that if you want to go down this road you have to dispense with terms like 'better' and 'sound quality' because the measure of a good clock circuit is how steady it is. How little variance it has. So you need to measure jitter and theres absolutely no way that an external clock can ever have less jitter than an internal clock as long as its not broken in some way. There are many threads on this from decent engineers over at places like prosoundweb so I recommend going over there for better advice on the subject if you are interested but the deeper you go, the less relevant it is to sitting down and strumming out a really good song. Which is what I'm trying to do. Its easy to get lost in a peripheral discipline.

I've just seen discussions like this go on for a long time with the anecdotes and on occasion real wignut theories. And I feel bad for people that use forums for learning purposes because they soak up the truths and the lies and they end up forming some very strange ideas about how the whole thing works.
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Old 05-15-2010, 06:06 PM
Joseph Hanna Joseph Hanna is offline
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No. It was meant to be taken generally in regards to what I think is something of an epidemic on music/production forums. This thread is moving on to a point where things are being said that none of us really have the engineering knowledge to answer satisfactorily and so out comes the anecdotal evidence.

Things like clocking are problems for the people who develop converters. Its not something consumers should ever have to think about. For instance I've seen some people slaving their converters to an external clock and swear blind that it makes their tracks sound 'better'. Then they go on to advise others to buy an external clock to improve their conversion which is dubious advice at best.

I'm just saying that if you want to go down this road you have to dispense with terms like 'better' and 'sound quality' because the measure of a good clock circuit is how steady it is. How little variance it has. So you need to measure jitter and theres absolutely no way that an external clock can ever have less jitter than an internal clock as long as its not broken in some way. There are many threads on this from decent engineers over at places like prosoundweb so I recommend going over there for better advice on the subject if you are interested but the deeper you go, the less relevant it is to sitting down and strumming out a really good song. Which is what I'm trying to do. Its easy to get lost in a peripheral discipline.

I've just seen discussions like this go on for a long time with the anecdotes and on occasion real wignut theories. And I feel bad for people that use forums for learning purposes because they soak up the truths and the lies and they end up forming some very strange ideas about how the whole thing works.
I'm sorry Pokiehat. I am the utter, Titanic king of dispelling bull **** on internet forums. Indeed most times (as here) it's the ONLY time I chime in. The inane dribble that has here to fore been spewed on this subject and in this thread simply got to much for me to handle.

My point (as always) is internet misinformation is detrimental to those that don't know better. I HAVE in fact spelled that out in this thread. This thread...this...THREAD.

Have you really read my responses in total before you decided to criticize? My response in it's entirety is anti Apogee clock and anti Black Lion mod and pro get to work and learn to mix with what you have. Have you read my responses??

That said and for the record I have worked for both DAW software developers (Digidesign) AND clock developers. I know what and how and when clock (and more specifically clock issues) do and DON'T enter the sonic equation.

My advice has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, without a single nano second of hesitation been.....learn your craft and stop trying to buy your way into good sound. My advice has ALWAYS been use what you have, work you're room and stop attempting to "buy" the banner of Sound Engineer. It's a talent NOT a commodity.

OK as usual I gotta drop out of this slop as it's not getting anyone...anywhere.
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Old 05-15-2010, 08:29 PM
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OK as usual I gotta drop out of this slop as it's not getting anyone...anywhere.
NA I don't believe that's true I for one always appreciate a considered opinion Even if I don't necessarily agree with all of it I in fact agree with most of what you have offered.


Quote:
My response in it's entirety is anti Apogee clock and anti Black Lion mod and pro get to work and learn to mix with what you have.
For the record I don't have a Black Lion Mod and would not be interested in one. I was simply curious as to what camp you might be in. The anti appogee clock statement? I think I understand but it may not be as clear as you think. Like your statement about retail distributors making tests, at face value my retort was logical,while admittedly tongue in cheek. Because I guessed you were not talking showroom listening. But I confess I decided to have some fun at your expense any way. Please forgive my capricious attempt at humor. As with your penchant for dispelling Bull*** I am given to dispelling to much seriousness in forums.


Quote:
That said and for the record I have worked for both DAW software developers (Digidesign) AND clock developers. I know what and how and when clock (and more specifically clock issues) do and DON'T enter the sonic equation.
So back to the "anti-Appogee clock" Am I correct I assuming you Like Dan Lavery are referring to the normal home recording situation where only a single clock is being used and an internal clock should (all things being equal) be less prone to jitter ?
Quote:
My advice has ALWAYS, ALWAYS, ALWAYS, without a single nano second of hesitation been.....learn your craft and stop trying to buy your way into good sound. My advice has ALWAYS been use what you have, work you're room and stop attempting to "buy" the banner of Sound Engineer. It's a talent NOT a commodity.
So here we get down to the real meat of the issue. While this advice certainly has merit, within the context of its own parameters. i.e. someone thinking they can "buy" the banner of Sound Engineer" then I would say absolutely true. Its a skill that has to be learned.

But again, this really does not in and of itself, negate the fact that many times, even for those in the process of learning, a better tool may indeed make the learning process more efficient.
To further illustrate I will use the analogy of carpentry (my field of expertise, my studio in the photo, is my carpentry work ) Lets call Sweetwater the Lowes of Audio. You or any home owner can go to Lowes and buy the exact same carpentry tools that I used in my construction career. Does that mean you will be able to construct and finish your own home or studio with the same level of quality and as efficiently as I can ? Of course not. Does this fact mean that until you have the skill level of a journeyman carpenter you should stick to using a hand saw and a hammer? I don't think so... I think the home guy should get the best tools he can afford, cause any one with half a brain and mediocre motor skills can utilize the benefits of a Hitachi compound miter saw and good nail guns, a compressor, and a laser level.Does that mean that because they are a home owner hobbyist they should just first use a craftsman circular saw until they can build a hip roof with it? instead of a Hitachi top of the line? I dont think so.. Are they still going to have to get their hands dirty and get splinters, learn to use these tools? Yep but so what ? Their still better off with better tools. P.S. I realize that the analogy may not play through 100% but much of it is so.
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Last edited by KevWind; 05-16-2010 at 08:46 AM.
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  #27  
Old 05-16-2010, 08:42 AM
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KevWind KevWind is online now
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Again to both Pokiehat and Joseph you may not realize just how productive these types of discussions actually are. No matter the level of expertise and no matter the level of discussions. Even though much may be way over the head, Bits and pieces of knowledge stick teaspoons full at a time, within the buckets full there is to learn. Provided all can remain a bit at arms length emotionally AND avoid unproductive invectives.

Guys really really, your insights and opinions are extremely valuable but!! if those start to drift under the mantel of Hall Monitor they become less so.

For those who are pro's try to embrace this simple yet profound insight That I received from a very wise Horse trainer. Which really applys to life in general.
"The best way to remain calm and objective, no matter what nonsense and mayhem may be swirling about you is" (DON'T TAKE THE HORSES LEARNING CURVE, PERSONALLY) cheers ,Kev
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Enjoy the Journey.... Kev...

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Last edited by KevWind; 05-16-2010 at 10:34 AM.
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Old 05-16-2010, 02:12 PM
alohachris alohachris is offline
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Aloha,

Or the JackAzz' learning curve either, in my case, Kev. Very deft job of response and taking the high road, my High Country friend. Because of it, I really learned a lot from the calls and responses of you, Joe & Pokie. Thanks guys for woikin' widdat.

alohachris
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