Specific tips for recording fingerstyle?

[Gtrfinger]

So, over the last couple of years, i've got the laptop 2.6Ghz processor with 512MB ram, USB E-mu0404 interface, saved for two decent mics large-d AKG C3000, and small-d shure sm81. Using Cakewalk Guitar Tracks Pro3 software, which i've had for years. Ready to record but any tips specifically for recording solo steel string fingerstyle? As opposed to recording acoustic guitar as part of an ensemble or even vocals and guitar. Just solo guitar.

Some places i've heard that you're best recording a flat sound, with as little room reverb as possible, other places i've read the opposite. Which mic arrangements, if any, work best for fingerstyle, where I'm looking for a nice balanced sound. Have i done wrong by getting two mics that will be out of phase? Should I have got two identical? How close to the 12ft fret do I want my mic? Some sites recommend less than 12inches, others have recommended three foot. The odd recording test I've done with the Shure means I have to put it back quite far, even with the roll off at its lowest setting, as the sound is too boomy.

I appreciate i won't get the same quality as John Renbourn or El McMeen get on their professional recordings, with the limited kit and lack of a proper studio I have, I'm just looking for a few pointers please.

Cheers, Mike

[Bob1131]

Every room is different, as is every guitar and player, so my advice is to move things around until you find your optimal sound.

Generally speaking, I like a spaced mic set up where one mic is 12 inches or so from the neck/body joint, angled slightly toward the sound hole, and the other mic 12 or so inches from the bridge again slightly tilted toward the sound hole. It is important to note that an inch or two in angle or distance can have a profound and noticeable impact on the recorded sound. Hard pan one mic left and the other right. Some slight EQing on each mic can minimize or emphasize some phase effects, depending on what you want for sound.

If it is booming, check that your gain is not too high, and roll off the bass if you have that capability. Try to minimize reflections in the room so that you are recording the guitar and not too much of the room. A touch of hall reverb can add the feeling of space, but be careful not to use too much because that will make the guitar sound like it is in the back of the hall rather than in front of the listener.

It sounds like you have great equipment, so the rest will just be experimentation! Have fun, and post some tracks when you think it sounds the way you want it!

[Fran Guidry]

Originally Posted by Gtrfinger

So, over the last couple of years, i've got the laptop 2.6Ghz processor with 512MB ram, USB E-mu0404 interface, saved for two decent mics large-d AKG C3000, and small-d shure sm81. Using Cakewalk Guitar Tracks Pro3 software, which i've had for years. Ready to record but any tips specifically for recording solo steel string fingerstyle? As opposed to recording acoustic guitar as part of an ensemble or even vocals and guitar. Just solo guitar.

Some places i've heard that you're best recording a flat sound, with as little room reverb as possible, other places i've read the opposite. Which mic arrangements, if any, work best for fingerstyle, where I'm looking for a nice balanced sound. Have i done wrong by getting two mics that will be out of phase? Should I have got two identical? How close to the 12ft fret do I want my mic? Some sites recommend less than 12inches, others have recommended three foot. The odd recording test I've done with the Shure means I have to put it back quite far, even with the roll off at its lowest setting, as the sound is too boomy.

I appreciate i won't get the same quality as John Renbourn or El McMeen get on their professional recordings, with the limited kit and lack of a proper studio I have, I'm just looking for a few pointers please.

Cheers, Mike

After the performance, I'd say the instrument and room and the two most important factors in the sound of a fingerstyle guitar recording, followed by mic placement. This format is as bare bones as one can get, so there's no opportunity for masking or hiding the flaws in a wall of sound.

Proximity effect in directional mics can affect the sound 2 to 3 feet from the source. This is one source of boominess. Room modes, where low frequencies reinforce after bouncing, is another. Room treatment (a substantial number of broad band absorbers) can reduce the bass energy along with the early reflections. This reduces the degree of bass reinforcement and also improves the small room sound by reducing the early reflections.

It's fairly easy to knock down early reflections and make a dead sounding room, but without addressing lower frequencies the results tend to be muddy and lifeless.

With good room treatment you can position the mics at a greater distance, which gives a more realistic and less boomy sound, at the cost of some intensity and presence. Closer mic placement gives a greater direct to reflected ratio, but requires EQ to manage bass buildup and can sound unnatural and pickup-y because it senses less of the overall sound of the guitar.

I use coincident mic placement "just in case" I need mono compatibility at some point. I've found a Mid-Side array to be easy to place and there's no penalty for processing M-S in the digital realm. Others prefer the wider sound of spaced pairs.

In my experience, the choice of mics has a surprisingly small impact compared to performance, instrument, room, and mic placement. And the rest of the recording chain has even less significance, if there are no overt effects being used during recording. Pro engineers who have done hundreds or thousands of sessions learn to recognize the sonic signature of some mics, and develop preferences, but for most of us the differences are pretty subtle.

Monitoring is vital if you're really after a particular sound - without good monitors you'll never know if you're headed toward your goal or away from it. And monitoring is improved substantially by the same room treatment that improves the recording.

I think recording technology has progressed so far that you should expect to get as good a sound as Renbourn or McMeen - in fact El just posted a link to a home recording that sounded sterling. Naturally you'll need ears and taste as good as theirs, along with experience and ability similar to their recording and mastering engineers, but your equipment need not limit your results, even on a fairly modest budget.

I've posted some mic comparisons, articles on building and placing broad band absorbers, M-S matrixing, and other topics related to recording acoustic guitar at home at my Hombrewed Music blog. The link is in my sig.

Fran

[alohachris]

Aloha Mike,

Very helpful posts so far. Nice pun, "Tips for fingerstyle?"

In putting together my own recording rig/studio, the most important element of the whole thing is ROOM TREATMENT. You can do it cheaply or professionally, but it is the most important starting point for achieving professional results, regardless of the equipment. Start with that.

The art of recording any kind of guitar music is matching up the right guitar/song/style to the right preamp with the right mic pattern in a treated room. Sounds simple. But I'm finding it aint so.

I'm no pro as an engineer, but I do value and love the natural sound of the acoustic guitar in its purest form. I have decent equipment and the room treatment is getting better all the time. The knowledge is slow in coming but getting there.

I tend to favor spaced, matched, mic pairs in exactly the same configuration as Bob1131, exactly. Matched pairs of S/D condensers work great, especially when the room is not up to snuff. Alex DeGrassi and Laurence Juber have told me that this is their most popular mic pattern as well.

Others like to combine an S/D w/ a L/D mic.

Here are some other patterns that work well for fingerstyle:

http://www.humbuckermusic.com/acguitrectec.html

http://www.recordinglair.com/record/...n/micplace.htm

As my room gets better treatment, I'm becoming more intrigued by using it in my fingerstyle recordings. So I'm looking at patterns such as a fairly close matched space pair of S/D condensers, WITH a couple of L/D's on stands say 12-15 feet out from the guitar, spaced at 12-15 feet apart from each other towards the guitar. Four inputs.

I don't use ANY EQ as I record, saving it for mixing. I EQ by mic placement. I also use light hall reverb in the headphones because I like it better than the dry sound. And, I don't really edit much either.

The possibilities are endless.

Here's a good resource for you on home studios:

http://www.dougyoungguitar.com/studio.php

As Fran says, there is no reason why you couldn't sound like Renborn with today's equipment - and yours is fine. Check out Fran's website!

But seriously, TREAT YOUR ROOM!

A Hui Hou!
alohachris

[rick-slo]

Experiment a lot. Play a bunch of short takes and listen back to them.

Record in stereo.

Listen via headphones while moving mikes around.

For close set mikes (eg XY, ORTF) use the AKG mikes.

For a spaced pair you can mix the mikes if you wish. Try the AKG around the
neck body area and the Shure on the body for starters.

Generally on a space pair set up the mike to your left for the best sound while listening
in mono. Leave it there. Then go to stereo and set up the other mike for the best combined sound.

Don’t get hung up on the 3 to 1 mike placement rule. It does not apply (more about that in another thread perhaps).

Mike within two feet of the guitar.

The closer the mikes the less the room acoustics come into play but with very close mikes you have to keep the guitar
fairly still while playing. Very small movements of the guitar make a big difference in sound.

Recording 24 bits at a 44,100 sample rate is plenty.

As to recording levels it is generally agreed that yellow is the new red. Leave headroom.

Add any effects you might which to use post recording, not during recording.

Browse the internet. There is tons and tons and tons of articles and threads on the subject.

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Gtrfinger

So, over the last couple of years, i've got the laptop 2.6Ghz processor with 512MB ram, USB E-mu0404 interface, saved for two decent mics large-d AKG C3000, and small-d shure sm81. Using Cakewalk Guitar Tracks Pro3 software, which i've had for years. Ready to record but any tips specifically for recording solo steel string fingerstyle? As opposed to recording acoustic guitar as part of an ensemble or even vocals and guitar. Just solo guitar.

Some places i've heard that you're best recording a flat sound, with as little room reverb as possible, other places i've read the opposite. Which mic arrangements, if any, work best for fingerstyle, where I'm looking for a nice balanced sound. Have i done wrong by getting two mics that will be out of phase? Should I have got two identical? How close to the 12ft fret do I want my mic? Some sites recommend less than 12inches, others have recommended three foot. The odd recording test I've done with the Shure means I have to put it back quite far, even with the roll off at its lowest setting, as the sound is too boomy.

I appreciate i won't get the same quality as John Renbourn or El McMeen get on their professional recordings, with the limited kit and lack of a proper studio I have, I'm just looking for a few pointers please.

Cheers, Mike

Spend a few years recording yourself. Be patient. Learning how to record takes years. The gear doesn't matter as much as the experimentation and experience, although the gear can be a hinderance if you don't learn how to use it, or if it sucks. If you are going to be both performer and recording engineer, you need to forget about recording when recording. That requires a good understanding of recording issues, enough so that you can focus on performing when recording. So take the time to research, study, experiment, ask questions, etc.

As to gear, mediocre gear is mediocre, good gear is good and great gear is great. Your room, monitoring chain, front end signal chain, mix tools and mastering tools are all important. You don't necessarily need expensive gear these days because there is good gear at reasonable, and even cheap, prices. Still, if you put a stunning performance together with quality engineering and stellar gear you end up with something magical - the real deal.

[Cue Zephyr]

Check out my recording tests somewhere in this subforum (http://www.acousticguitarforum.com/f...35&postcount=1). I find the SDC over the 12th fret (bout 20 cm away) and the LDC just under the bridge angled towards the soundhole to be the best set-up for solo fingerstyle.
I record in a corner that's covered with 2 m² of the black sound absorbing foam.

Beside that I recommend recording your guitar and strum really hard. Then you can find the notes (frequencies) where the guitar resonates more than on other frequencies. Then you can take those out with an FFT compressor, like the Oxford SuprEsser or the ReaFIR plug-in to even out your spectrum.
Also, when placing mics, check your left-right balance and phasing with a goniometer.
Lastly, you can use any mixing and mastering techniques you'd normally use on a full set of instruments (drums, bass, guitars). Like, for example, I recommend a little compression to even out your signal, maybe some artificial reverb, maybe some other effects (whatever you want), and lastly some slight limiting to bring the RMS to the desired level (-12 is usually good enough, check other solo fingerstyle tracks for reference).

HTH

[Gtrfinger]

Flamin' eck! Thanks an awful lot Bob, Fran, Rick, sdelsoray and Cue Zephyr! Such detailed informed advice. I wasn't expecting so much and in such a short space of time- i only posted this thread yesterday. You've explained why i get such boominess, i've got large mirrors in the room i was using which i had thought was a good idea to get reflection. Now i realise - nope. I'll try hanging some rugs to deaden the acoustics. I'll experiment more with mic placement as suggested. And i'm going to have to sort out the monitoring side of things. I'll post my results here in a few weeks. What a great forum- i only joined a few weeks ago.

[Bob1131]

Originally Posted by Gtrfinger

Flamin' eck! Thanks an awful lot Bob, Fran, Rick, sdelsoray and Cue Zephyr! Such detailed informed advice. I wasn't expecting so much and in such a short space of time- i only posted this thread yesterday. You've explained why i get such boominess, i've got large mirrors in the room i was using which i had thought was a good idea to get reflection. Now i realise - nope. I'll try hanging some rugs to deaden the acoustics. I'll experiment more with mic placement as suggested. And i'm going to have to sort out the monitoring side of things. I'll post my results here in a few weeks. What a great forum- i only joined a few weeks ago.

Glad to help and I hope you get the sound you are seeking! And welcome to the AGF!!! (I should have noticed you were new, so I apologize for not welcoming you sooner).

[Cue Zephyr]

Cool that you've got the same audio interface as me!

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by Gtrfinger

Flamin' eck! Thanks an awful lot Bob, Fran, Rick, sdelsoray and Cue Zephyr! Such detailed informed advice. I wasn't expecting so much and in such a short space of time- i only posted this thread yesterday. You've explained why i get such boominess, i've got large mirrors in the room i was using which i had thought was a good idea to get reflection. Now i realise - nope. I'll try hanging some rugs to deaden the acoustics. I'll experiment more with mic placement as suggested. And i'm going to have to sort out the monitoring side of things. I'll post my results here in a few weeks. What a great forum- i only joined a few weeks ago.

Be patient. Recording is a wonderful and exciting endeavor regardless of whether you are doing it professionally or as a hobby. It is a mixture of art, science, engineering and craft.

Some thoughts:

1) Your monitoring chain (i.e., signal path to the monitoring speakers and headphones) is more important than you might first realize;

2) Likewise, the room you record/listen in is more important than you might first realize (including how the room responds);

3) Mic placement is more important than you might first realize;

4) Knowing how to use gear is more important than the quality of the gear (unless the gear is broken or simply sucks to begin with); and

5) Training you ears to hear things that you currently cannot hear will drive most of your future decisions.