Amplifying a Martin Through saddle acoustic?????

[35' Sunburst]

I've got a Martin with a through saddle - ( I think that's how you discribe it)
They come on their vintage spec models. What is a good way to amplify them. The under the saddle piezo is not really a choice because the saddle is glued in.
Any help would be greatly appreciated. I really don't like the in the sound hole pickups like the Sunrise or fishman, etc. Any other way to get a good amplified sound other than miking?
What about those I-Beams?

kksbt ...................

[dberch]

K&K Pure Western Mini. Absolutley natruaral sound. Works in all situation except for VERY louds stage volume. I have mini's on 4 guitars and they all sound wonderful. They sound like themselves.

[35' Sunburst]

Very Cool:
http://www.kksound.com/purewestern.html
Thanks for the link. I've never heard of this system but it looks like the ticket.
I like its' simplicity. And I'm glad to hear that it works well.

[35' Sunburst]

And here's a really nice option:
http://www.kksound.com/vintagejack.html

Always something new to learn and give food for thought.

[mjz]

If you don't play with a band at somehat loud stage volumes the K&K is a great choice. If you need to cut above a bass and electric guitar the feedback threshold of the K&K probably won't suffice. A piezo excels in this situation. I know that a few luthiers actually notch the long through saddle to accept a piezo. The saddles will come out easily enough with a little heat.

Another high threshold feedback option would be a mag pick-up. The Baggs M1 gets great reviews. The sunrise, while definitely a mag sound, sounds really nice.

I installed a Trance Audio in my "V" Martin. Pricey... but offers tone at least as good as the K&K with a much higher feedback threshold.

max

[35' Sunburst]

Thanks mjz for more options for amplifying with a through saddle Martin. With all the options available, getting information from actual users of the products really helps.

[mjz]

'35

If you'd really like a piezo, check into one of these from Maury's Music

WaveLength from DTAR

I'm not sure if Maury does the "install-notching" to use this transducer with a long saddle, but it's really not that difficult. Any tech person with a heat gun and a dremel can do the trick.

The only reason I would suggest a peizo over the K&K at this point is to take advantage of modelers like the Mama Bear (DTAR) and Aura (Fishman). Both offer surprisingly good tone with a much higher level of feedback resistance than the SBTs.

I've heard Maury's OM-28V on a number of occassions with this pick-up installed. The 18 volt system does truly get rid of the quack often associated with USTs.

I own or have played a ton of pick-ups. The Trance in my D45V is unbelievable. I own two Sunrise's, 3 Fishmans, have played the K&K, the M1, I own a Baggs I-Beam. They're all good and have certain areas where they preform better than others. The biggest thing to consider is the final application. Every pick-up is a compramise.

The next post is a re-post of one I made months ago. I couldn't sleep one night so made up a kind of Acoustic Guitar Pick-up 101. Call it a Christmas present

max

[mjz]

Re: Electronics for D-28 Marquis

You might want to start here, www.dougyoungguitar.com/pickuptest.htm. This is an incredible site to demo the sounds of various pick-up systems in various brands, shapes, and sizes of guitar. You will leave this site understanding the tone of a UST (Under Saddle Transducer), An SBT (Sound Board Transducer) which is essentially the same as an AST (Acoustic Soundboard Transducer), a manetic soundhole pick-up (MAG), and a condensor microphone.

But tone is only part of the story. If it were the whole story we'd all be debating which microphone to buy instead of which pick-up to install.

For me, choosing the right pick-up is an excercise in compramise. The challenge is in determining where to compramise.

Along with tone you have to consider feedback. The very properties that make many guitars sound so great unplugged -- the sustain, the complexity of overtones, that killer bass response -- are the very same things that allow it to feedback fairly easily on stage. Remember, feedback is nothing more than a loop of oscillating frequencies that continually get reamplified and eventually reach VU levels that render them unappealing to the human ear. Think of your guitar as one potential point in the loop.

The Loop
Guitar strings create frequencies -- pick-up sends frequency through amplification and out loudspeakers -- Guitar body receives those frequencies from loudspeakers and vibrates sympathetically --- pick up re-sends those frequencies back through amplification and out loudspeakers -- and on and on and on.

There are all types of ways to break this loop.
1. Parametric EQ isolating and removing the specific offending frequency. This can be an inserted 31 band EQ , part of a feedback ferret or automatic feedback search and destroyer, or a notch filter(s) as in the Baggs Para DI or The Fishman Aura.
2. Addressing the acoustical properties of the room as in a studio
3. Addressing the geometry of speaker and monitor placement relative to the guitar
4. Addressing the pick-up's characteristics and ability to recapture the offending frequency in the loop.

Some of us who ask the preverbial pick-up question are seeking the best tone possible and are willing to invest in technology and knowledge to embrace the list above, but many of us just want to play guitar and not worry about all that stuff. To find the answer to your question you'll have to decide where you fit in. In otherwords, how much are you willing to compramise. How much you willin to spend?

Some types of pick-ups and characteristics.

The SBT/AST
These are pick-ups that affix to the underside of the bridgeplate and sense vibrations. The K&K Pure System is very popular on this forum. So is the B-Band AST as well as the Baggs I Beam. These units work more like a condensor microphone in the way they pick up and transmit signals. You can hear them on the Doug Young site.

One drawback is they are the most prone to feedback among traditional pick-up sources.

The UST
These pick-ups sit between the saddle and the bridge. They are made of either piezocrystals or a copolymer strip that essentially acts the same way. They work differently than an SBT or condensor microphone. When a piezoceramic element or copolymer strip is stressed mechanically by the vibration of the strings through the saddle, it generates an electric charge and a voltage associated with the charge appears. That voltage is then amplified, transmitted and reproduced.

When considering your feedback loop it's easy to see how the system resists feedback. It takes louder sound levels to have the frequencies loop by being picked-up through your saddle and onto the UST. The compramise, however, is sound quality.

The Fishman Matrix system is a very popular pick-up . They are also known as Natural I(a flat response system) and the Natural II (EQ'd to cut some bass response -- this is the one reccomended for your dread). Martin rebrands them the Gold plus or something like that, but it's the same pick-up.

Other popular USTs include the PUTW, the DTAR Timberline, and the Baggs element. Recently Maury Rutch of Maury's Music (shameless plug for a friend) has been tauting DTAR's new UST, the Wavelength. It utilizes a high impedance output and may have solved the piezo "quack" syndrome. Those electrical charges created by the crystal or copolymer strip can sound like a quack when they get overly excited, as in a hard strum. The Wavelength's amplification voltage and impedance settles this down a bit. More info from Maury here.

One interesting recent development is the introduction of modelers like the Fishman Aura and DTAR Mama Bear. These essentially change the sound signature of the UST signal to more closely resemble the signature of your guitar reproduced through a selected microphone. They do this changing EQ, attack and delay times, gain, and a bunch of other parameters (or bits) that Fishman and DTAR aren't talking about. They sound pretty good, but are still a compramise.

The Magnetic Soundhole Transducer.
These pick-ups sit in the soundhole and use the magnetic resonance to create a voltage to reproduce your guitars sound.
This makes them the least suseptible to feedback. They don't sound very "natural", but some offerings definitely sound better. The Baggs M1, the Fishman Rare Earth Series, and the Sunrise are worth considering. You know the Sunrise sound if you've ever heard a live recording of Keith Richards playing acoustic. It sounds pretty darn good on "Stripped"

So, armed with this knowledge of feedback and the sound samples from Doug Young's site -- you have some decisions to make and compramises to accept.

Are you likely to play at lower sound levels? Are you after pure acoustic tone? If you do want a bit more VU can you take time to figure out the geometries of speaker and monitor placement or nominally invest in some feedback suppression gear and time to learn it? If so, the SBT is a good place to start. My D45V has a Trance Audio Acoustic Amulet in it. Although it's an SBT, it utilizes the same principle as the DTAR Wavelength by operating at a different impedance and gain making it a bit less susceptible to feedback.

Or are you more likely to play with loud bandmates (think lead guitarist and my obnoxiously loud bass playing friend Jim) and require higher stage monitoring volumes? If that's the case consider a UST or a higher quality Mag like the Sunrise. I have three guitars, An HD28, A D12-35, and an OM-28V that utilize the Fishman Matrix system. And I own an Aura which definitely makes an impact on the quality of tone. I'm also excited to hear the new Wavelength.

One last consideration is one of the blend systems that conceivably gives you the best of both worlds. The K&K Trinity is very popular on this forum as is the Fishman Elipse.

Anyone of these systems can utilize onboard pre-amp controls for convience or offboard which means you don't put a hole in the side of your guitar. Some people are adamant about not cutting a hole in their guitar. Others are not. I have two with holes, a D-12-35 and an HD-28 -- and three without, an M-38, D45V, and OM-28V.

One thing to remember, there is no right or wrong. Only you can decide which compramise works best for you. After reading this long post (that only scratches the surface of the answer to your question by the way), I wouldn't be surprised if you just ran out and bought a mic and only ever played in a rubber room

Oh yeah, next time I can't sleep at 5:00 in the morning, I'll cover preamps

Good luck,

Max

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by 35' Sunburst

Thanks mjz for more options for amplifying with a through saddle Martin. With all the options available, getting information from actual users of the products really helps.

Hi 35 S...
I have used about every style of pickup known to man, and have to say that the K&K has captured my heart in the past couple years.

I have 4 guitars equipped with K&K pure western mini - three with mics in them as well (dual source).

I have to challenge the feedback prone issue a bit. I've not found my guitars any more sensitive to feedback than they were when I had undersaddle piezos or the Baggs LB-6 saddle pickups.

Any guitar can be made to feedback if the speakers in proximity are turned up too high - and the K&K are more prone to floor monitors feeding back as they are aimed right back up the face of the guitar, but they are more resistent to feedback from stage amps located directly behind or to the side of the player.

I have played on some very aggressive stages with my K&Ks without feedback issues, and the two remedies I've used everywhere are to turn off my guitar in the particular monitor that's in front of me (I always have my UltraSound behind or beside me and don't need it coming from the floor too), and to use a feedback buster if necessary - and it has been less necessary than when I used undersaddle piezos actually.

Another aspect of proper sound is proper pre-amplification. It can be as cheap as plugging in without a preamp and as expensive as purchasing a Pendulum stereo rack mount (thousands of dollars). I've used the internal preamps and beltpacks with limited success.

In reality, the $250-400 dual source preamp/blenders are great sounding units and cause guitars to sound like guitars and give the kind of control one needs to control the sound, tone and feedback, and they provide both XLR and 1/4'' input, effects loops, phase reverse, multiple volume controls & phantom power.

The DTAR Solstice is a great unit, as is the K&K Quantum. The Rane is ok, but I find that both it and the K&K Quantum take up too much space for my gear bags. I can carry my Raven (no longer made) in my gigbag, as one can the DTAR Solstice.

I run sound for many venues and find that with a little care, and good outboard processing gear, even the cheap pickups will sound like guitars, and the well equipped ones will sound spectacular.

Hope this helps...

[35' Sunburst]

WOW now that's some serious responses. I'm going back and forth between family Christmas time with the kids and wife and reading these highly informative posts on amplifying acoustics.

I really appreciate all the information and experience with different setups. I would say that my acoustic playing is on the lower volume venue with usually another acoustic player and singing. I do quite a bit of solo fingerstyle stuff too. But if we are playing louder stuff - I usually use a Gretsch 6120 which with the right guage and type of strings can sound phenomenal with finger style playing through a Deluxe reverb.

Ok, so I'm looking for the lower volume application, with no extra holes drilled in the guitar except for the end pin. Which probably narrows my choices a bit. As you guys know, it is a real ordeal to get that unplugged sound plugged in.

Thanks for all the information - It truely is a Christmas Present greatly appreciated.

[Chicago Sandy]

Originally Posted by dberch

K&K Pure Western Mini. Absolutley natruaral sound. Works in all situation except for VERY louds stage volume. I have mini's on 4 guitars and they all sound wonderful. They sound like themselves.

That's exactly what I've got on my D-18GE. Absolutely transparent, no batteries to test or replace. Only time I even use a preamp is if I'm too far from the board to tweak the volume onstage.

[35' Sunburst]

Thanks Chicago Sandy for the on the K&K Pure Western Mini. It seems like a good way to go when you don't want a whole lot in the guitar and you are using it in lower volume settings. I really don't want to drill or dremel the guitar for a battery holder or a piezo strip under the glue-in saddle and/or put something across the sound hole. I may go with the K&K system because of its' simplicity.
Merry Christmas!

[35' Sunburst]

Speaking of K&K systems;
Check out the February 2007 Vintage Guitar Magazine issue page 104:
"Amplified Acoustic Tones Worth Hearing"
They review and discuss the install of the K&K system with Trinity dual channel preamp and talk about the adjusting for best sound.