Did anyone attempt such experiment?

[Pippin]

I have been reading a lot of contentious discussions about how different parts of the guitar "may" affect the volume & tone, such as:

Nut, saddle, bridge pin materials
Neck/ bridge materials
Effects of abalone top border/ purfling
Effects of cutaway ...just to mention a few.

Since no two pieces of wood are identical we could never eliminate the variations intrinsic to each guitar.

My question is: can we eliminate the variables as much as possible by using two identiical (!) carbon-fiber guitars, and study the effects of each of the above "gadgets" may (or not) do to the sound of the instrument?

[celticlofts]

Contentious discussions is right and a bloody waste of time that would be better spent playing the instrument. I guess the best we can do is find something that sounds good to our ear and is aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, besides, the biggest difference between one guitar and another is the guy playing it.

[HHP]

In short, no. No reason to think carbon fiber would react to changes the way a wood instrument does and lots of reasons to think it wouldn't.

In a wider sense, I don't think you can experiment when the results you want to measure are totally subjective.

[BEADGCF]

Originally Posted by celticlofts

Contentious discussions is right and a bloody waste of time that would be better spent playing the instrument. I guess the best we can do is find something that sounds good to our ear and is aesthetically pleasing to the eyes, besides, the biggest difference between one guitar and another is the guy playing it.

Dang!

I just spent a hundred bucks for a bone nut made from bleached thigh bone from Django" Reinhardt's left leg.

So you are saying I could have wasted some money?

I was so sure the ad was honest.

[Garthman]

Originally Posted by celticlofts

Contentious discussions is right and a bloody waste of time that would be better spent playing the instrument. . . . . .

++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Originally Posted by Pippin

I have been reading a lot of contentious discussions about how different parts of the guitar "may" affect the volume & tone, such as:

Nut, saddle, bridge pin materials
Neck/ bridge materials
Effects of abalone top border/ purfling
Effects of cutaway ...just to mention a few.

Since no two pieces of wood are identical we could never eliminate the variations intrinsic to each guitar.

My question is: can we eliminate the variables as much as possible by using two identiical (!) carbon-fiber guitars, and study the effects of each of the above "gadgets" may (or not) do to the sound of the instrument?

This is an internet forum. If you type in "The sky is blue" it will start a contentious discussion. I'm pretty sure there are people on the AGF that actually know the effect all those things have on tone - great players like Larry Pattis, or makers like Tim McNight - but the rest of us just like to argue. Your experiment could be done, but would not solve anything.

[ukejon]

I just spent a hundred bucks for a bone nut made from bleached thigh bone from Django" Reinhardt's left leg.

Wasted money if you are using it on a guitar (ok on a soprano ukulele). The specific density of Django's right thigh bone was far more well suited to an acoustic guitar presuming that the spruce top was harvested between midnight and 2:00 am on a cool evening and that the slightly scalloped internal braces were carved with special steel Japanese chisels using wood that was grown on the shady side of a mountain.

[lennylux]

Originally Posted by celticlofts

..a bloody waste of time that would be better spent playing the instrument.

That sir, is the most sensible thing I've ever read on any guitar forum.

[Misty44]

Did anyone attempt such experiment?

There are a few luthiers who conduct technical experiments on such matters. Alan Carruth is one, and he often contributes his learned findings on this forum.

But good luthiers already know the answer to your question -- they put into practice the experiments you're talking about for a living. Through trial and error over time, they've studied the effects that design and materials have on the instrument, and mix and match both to produce the outcome they desire.

To them, these issues are not "a bloody waste of time" at all, they are fundamental to what we call The Art of Guitar Making.

[s2y]

Why is there so much chest pounding for NOT wanting to figure out things about the guitar?

I'll admit that I'm not interested in the particular experiments the OP, but I don't fault him for wondering or trying.

[RP]

Originally Posted by s2y

Why is there so much chest pounding for NOT wanting to figure out things about the guitar?

I'll admit that I'm not interested in the particular experiments the OP, but I don't fault him for wondering or trying.

Thanks, s2y. We have 70-some thousand members on AGF with a similar number of perceptions about the guitar. Some approach the guitar as players, some as collectors, and some from a more theoretical point of view. We have members who study guitars from a physics/engineering standpoint, as luthiers, as professional/amateur performers, as journalists, and as interested bystanders who do none of the above. It's unrealistic to assume that every other member is going to share our same curiosity and contrary to AGF's Rule #1 BE NICE! policy to fault others because they have different ways that they look at acoustic guitars. What may be a waste of one person's time could easily be a life's work to someone else. I suggest that we not be so quick to judge others and spend a bit more time trying to understand where each other is coming from....

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by celticlofts

Contentious discussions is right and a bloody waste of time that would be better spent playing the instrument.

Hi celticlofts...

Oh I'm sorry, I thought this was a discussion forum and not a practice log.

I like contentious discussions, and friendly ones, and it's nice to have people to chat with who love guitars as much as me.

You do realize that nobody forced you to open this thread? Your comment has 'caused' me to waste time responding to it, rather than responding to the original post (which I shall do next).

[ship of fools]

But I have to wonder why if you aren't interested celticlofts why not just pass it by then. Me I don't care to know nor understand the dynamics of woods and saddles and pins and nuts. For me the important thing is the guitar and what it does for me but I would guess some folks just need to know and good on them for being curious.
I am guess my 45+ years have taught me what I want and need from my guitars and that is good for me and others need to learn more about how and why it works the way it does so I say let them have questions and wjho knows it may even teach an old dog like me some new tricks and learning something new is always a good thing.ship

[ljguitar]

Originally Posted by Pippin

...My question is: can we eliminate the variables as much as possible by using two identiical (!) carbon-fiber guitars, and study the effects of each of the above "gadgets" may (or not) do to the sound of the instrument?

Hi Pippin...

I like your thought. I guess I'm not convinced carbon fiber guitars are more consistent than well built handbuilt instruments.

What causes you to speculate that carbon-fiber instruments would be more consistent than carefully constructed wooden ones? I've seen some documentaries on how carbon fiber objects (sail boats, canoes, etc) are built, and there is a lot of hand work and glue and vacuum forms, heat treatment, setting up time etc involved, which would indicate to me there is room for deviation there too.

And I've played three brands of carbon fiber guitars (and different sizes within the brands), and don't find them uniform in volume, tone, sustain etc.

I'm sure some of us would welcome any such experiments and the results if you choose to build and experiment with a pair of carbon fiber guitars, document and post the results and your appraisal.

I'd speculate it will likely confirm some of the results which are already known, without resolving any issues like 'tone improvement'. How do you measure improved tone of man-made high-tech laminates (carbon fiber)?

I'd suspect some of the experiments you propose (volume changes with different nut, saddle, trim, bridge pins, tuning pegs…) could be done best on a single guitar, not a pair of them. And they could probably be done on cheap or expensive instruments...

The only controversial discussion I've seen which might benefit from a pair of allegedly identical guitars was whether it is better if the guitar has a bolted-on, glued on, or hybrid neck design. And the last thread on that I read left out the nuance of whether the neck is glued on with a hide glue or tite bond.

And then there is the issue that different builders build guitars quite differently. How does a carbon fiber guitar measure the effect of bridge pins on volume that somehow apply to all guitar designs?

[FrankS]

Originally Posted by Pippin

I have been reading a lot of contentious discussions about how different parts of the guitar "may" affect the volume & tone, such as:

My question is: can we eliminate the variables as much as possible by using two identiical (!) carbon-fiber guitars, and study the effects of each of the above "gadgets" may (or not) do to the sound of the instrument?

No, you can't. At least not in the way that you would like. What you are proposing is called a One Factor at a Time approach. While it will give you valid data for what you are measuring, it will do little to nothing to help you in another situation.

If you had a guitar or two or three to test with and let's say they truly were identical, then you could test each change out at a time and compare it to the other guitar(s). Then you would move to the next change and measure its effects. In the end you would have a nice little table describing the effect of each component of your experiment.

The big problem is that many of these components have effects that are dependent upon other components. In most of these cases the answer will be an optimum and not an extreme; i.e. not just saddle material but saddle height. A one inch tall saddle will probably not do well and nigher will a 1/16 inch one either (ignoring action height for the experiment). There will be a unique saddle material and height for each bridge configuration, bracing pattern top thickness, string gauge, and the like.

This is one of the reasons there is so much mis information out there about what works and what does not. Much lore is accurate but equally is not accurate. It takes an astute luthier to factor this into a guitar and make on the fly fine adjustments during the build and setup.

Frank Sanns