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  #1  
Old 11-08-2013, 02:10 PM
ZippyChip ZippyChip is offline
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Default Ramirez 1a

I have questions about a Ramirez 1a 1973 brazilian back/sides. Are these considered to be good guitars? How about tone--anyone care to take a shot at describing a typical a1 from the 70's?
I currently have a '75 Alvarez Yairi cy140 with brazilian back/sides (may be laminated) sometimes I like it and other times it has too much low end for me. I may prefer something with less low end.
What should I expect with the Ramirez?
May be too hard of a question to answer but only looking for general qualities of ther guitar.
Thanks
Bob
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:42 PM
randalljazz randalljazz is offline
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bright, clear in the upper range, warms with play, so it depends on the level of use. the "standard" by which all others are measured. great projection and volume.

depending on YOUR hands, you will likely find it physically challenging after the gentle alvarez yairi cy140 (i still have two them). nut and saddle may need adjustment for optimum playability.

i have heard complaints that the 1a is not that clear for contrapuntal music, but i have not found that to be the case with either the 6 or 10 string 1a's that i had and have.
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Old 11-08-2013, 03:46 PM
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I had a 1968 Ramirez 1a. 1960s were considered by many to be a peak decade for those guitars. Not sure about early 1970s. Nevertheless it still is guitar by guitar. Try to play before you pay. Ramirez guitars tend to be a bit more difficult to play than some others. Check on the scale length of the guitar you are looking at.
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Old 11-08-2013, 05:13 PM
rgregg48 rgregg48 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rick-slo View Post
I had a 1968 Ramirez 1a. 1960s were considered by many to be a peak decade for those guitars. \Try to play before you pay. Ramirez guitars tend to be a bit more difficult to play than some others. Check on the scale length of the guitar you are looking at.
Also, I find Ramirez 1A to be , sometimes inconsistant,,, one may sound
wonderful , while another may have a stuffed nose,,
Playing before you buy is always wise, but especially with Ramirez

Rick
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Old 11-08-2013, 06:44 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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I'll assume a cedar top and 656.

Can be fine guitars.. Whose initials are on the heel foot ?

Sensitive to hunmidity... not in a structural way but tubbiness in tone.

I owned a 1961 1F cypress and spruce 655 made by Contreras. Sadly sold it in a fit of poverty.
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Old 11-08-2013, 09:46 PM
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Most of the 60's and early 70's 1a's were 664 scale and had a significant tapering in the bass side of the fingerboard which made them more difficult in the upper registers of the bass strings. Many performing professionals played them. They were known for their stability in a broad range of environmental conditions. Some of them had wonderful voices. Like most guitars, though, some were significantly better than others. You don't find many on the professional circuit any more, though.
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Old 11-09-2013, 10:24 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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My post was in error... I meant to post 664 mm. The Ramirez standard after about 67 when they switched from mostly spruce to mostly cedar.

I do not think this was a coincidence for no reason. I think using the cheaper and more available cedar necessitated a longer scale length, although the scale was also used on spruce guitars.
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Old 11-13-2013, 09:48 AM
ZippyChip ZippyChip is offline
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Default refinished

This guitar I am considering apperantly had the top refinished by GSI about 8 years ago and later tried to buff out a mark left by a clear scratch guard. How does this affect the value?
The seller is currently asking for 4K.
I am still waiting to borrow it so I can play it for a few days. I dont know much more about the guitar yet but curious if it is even worht looking because of the refinished top.
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Old 11-13-2013, 01:13 PM
dosland dosland is offline
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For that kind of money, you can really afford to shop around. You'll find equal or much better instruments in that range, IMO, and you won't have to worry about a refinish or other potential structural issues. Good luck, though, if you play it and love it, I suppose that's all that matters!
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Old 11-13-2013, 03:59 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohemian View Post
My post was in error... I meant to post 664 mm. The Ramirez standard after about 67 when they switched from mostly spruce to mostly cedar.

I do not think this was a coincidence for no reason. I think using the cheaper and more available cedar necessitated a longer scale length, although the scale was also used on spruce guitars.
Jose Ramirez III claims in his book that they started using cedar because of the tone and that it breaks in real fast. So I don't know that because it was cheap was the reason why. In fact at the time there was all kinds of access to the best materials available including the Brazilian rosewood. He also experimented a lot so that could be what was going on with the scale length.

If you are looking to buy one then of course try it first.
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Old 11-13-2013, 04:47 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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Cedar was 1/4 of the cost of local euro spruce.

They also elected to go to plastic finishes because of the cost of french polishing; both in the initial cost and in customer complaints.

Little known info: Segovia believed the cedar tops were spent after a year..
one of the reasoons he rotated out of them.

My info comes straight from a a (real) Segovia student and lifelong friend of Segovia. He himself was the recipient of many of Segovias cast offs.
He was in Spain during the transition from cedar to spruce..

The "myth" that cedar breaks in faster than spruce developed at a later date as a marketing tool.

Interesting that some makers such as Fleta, also prefered Cedar. Cedar is brittle, toxic and fragile to the touch.

The same person who was a Segovia student and a long time concertising
guitarist, as well as the head of the classical guitar dept of a well known US university... turned to building a few years back.

He began with Spruce, gravitated to P.O. Cedar (cypress) and recently has retopped a couple of his older guitars with some very old red cedar.. quite an evolution.

I have been given a few of these billets... these were shake bolts cut in Wash state about 1960. I am in the process of slicing these to top sets.
We'll see. I don't like working with it.

I would take an East Indian spruce over a brazilian/cedar.


Cae by case.

BTW Ramirez also used quite a bit of redwood in the 90's... told no one..
some still think they have a red cedar top.
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Old 11-14-2013, 08:42 AM
redir redir is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by bohemian View Post
Cedar was 1/4 of the cost of local euro spruce.

They also elected to go to plastic finishes because of the cost of french polishing; both in the initial cost and in customer complaints.

Little known info: Segovia believed the cedar tops were spent after a year..
one of the reasoons he rotated out of them.

My info comes straight from a a (real) Segovia student and lifelong friend of Segovia. He himself was the recipient of many of Segovias cast offs.
He was in Spain during the transition from cedar to spruce..

The "myth" that cedar breaks in faster than spruce developed at a later date as a marketing tool.

Interesting that some makers such as Fleta, also prefered Cedar. Cedar is brittle, toxic and fragile to the touch.

The same person who was a Segovia student and a long time concertising
guitarist, as well as the head of the classical guitar dept of a well known US university... turned to building a few years back.

He began with Spruce, gravitated to P.O. Cedar (cypress) and recently has retopped a couple of his older guitars with some very old red cedar.. quite an evolution.

I have been given a few of these billets... these were shake bolts cut in Wash state about 1960. I am in the process of slicing these to top sets.
We'll see. I don't like working with it.

I would take an East Indian spruce over a brazilian/cedar.


Cae by case.

BTW Ramirez also used quite a bit of redwood in the 90's... told no one..
some still think they have a red cedar top.
I'm almost positive that Jose III said he liked cedar because it breaks in fast in his book. If that's the case then it could explain why Segovia would go through one so fast. But I bet those hand downs are still good guitars
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  #13  
Old 11-14-2013, 04:54 PM
bohemian bohemian is offline
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The cedar topped guitars when viewed in the "right light" exhibited the raised portions of the top supported by the braces, the spruce topped guitars did not.

Adirondack was used by Gibson, Martin et al because it was local and cheap. When it became more expensive due to scarcity and shipping sosts etc, they switched to sitka.. at a much lowe price. Same goes for brazilian transition to east indian.. it is a matter of economis,,
then the spin starts with all the blather aboput sounds good day i, does not need breaking in and all that stuff.. it's marketing tp cover a cost cuttiing measure

No differnet tha nTaylor's finger jointed paint grade necks and the quick detach system at the heel..

A friend and 40 year veteran luthier ( spanish but in USA) knew Ramirez III well and Amelia and Cntrera I and many other builders. He relayed to me that without exception, cedar becaue of cost. Most builders with an upcharge for euro spruce, just as there is an upcharge for some back and side timbres.
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