Can an archtop sound like a flattop?

[archtopGeek]

Came across this really interesting discussion entitled "The physics of archtops and flattops", here...

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi...c;f=1;t=028115

...and therein it was implied a couple of times that an archtop can be built so that it sounds like a flattop. I wish it be true . (The discussion is a fairly long read, but worth for those interested in understanding why guitars are the way they are. Very interesting few bits there).

So I want to ask you guys, if you think it to be a possibility, or you may have played any archtop which produced a tone like a flattop!

I know, It kinda defeats the purpose of the design of archtop, but I would very much appreciate what ever you may want to share in this regard.

aG

[Aaron Smith]

Never one that I've played, although there are sure to be exceptions.

[brad4d8]

I currently have two acoustic archtops, a 70s Guild Artist Award and a 1930s Metro B, supposedly made by Bacon and Day. I've tried various strings on both, neither one comes close to sounding like a flattop. The Metro comes closer, with a sound much like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nugXkgd_-84
It reminds me a little of some of the ladder braced flattops I've played. The Guild is a typical archtop, lots of punch, but not a lot of bass sustain. The treble strings do sing out a lot, even more in some ways than any of my flattops. I'm still experimenting with strings on it, so this opinion may change. I generally use phosphor bronze on the Metro.
Brad

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by archtopGeek

Came across this really interesting discussion entitled "The physics of archtops and flattops", here...

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi...c;f=1;t=028115

...and therein it was implied a couple of times that an archtop can be built so that it sounds like a flattop.

I reread the thread and didn't see anyone make that claim or imply it. It was said that the physics of vibration transfer from the string to the top are similar, but not identical. A lot of reasons were given for why they sound different despite similarity in the physical principles involved.

[archtopGeek]

Thank you guys for responding, and Brad for the youtube vides. That archtop is little flattoppish .

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

I reread the thread and didn't see anyone make that claim or imply it. It was said that the physics of vibration transfer from the string to the top are similar, but not identical. A lot of reasons were given for why they sound different despite similarity in the physical principles involved.

Howard, nice to see you chiming in...

On the very first page, in Alan's post, the concluding remarks are...

of course, there is a difference in emphasis: most archtops sound the way they do because they're built to: they could sound more like flat tops if the people buying them wanted that sound, and the people making them understood how to get it (which most of them probably do).

Alan Carruth / Luthier

As you noticed a lot of physics was discussed, with somewhat similar conclusions as you have summarized in your post. Of course, as no two guitars can sound identical, let alone two different types of them. Thus we use the terms "Like" or "Similar", just like Al did in his post.

I hope I have not misinterpreted Alan in the above quote.

aG

[Howard Klepper]

It's the difference between sounding "like a flattop," and sounding "more like a flattop."

[sfden1]

If I were going to buy an archtop, well, I'd be buying it for that quintessential archtop sound. I already have flattops. Vive la difference, and I like it. Not sure why you would want them to sound the same, or even similiar?

[Howard Emerson]

Originally Posted by archtopGeek

Came across this really interesting discussion entitled "The physics of archtops and flattops", here...

http://www.acousticguitar.com/ubbcgi...c;f=1;t=028115

...and therein it was implied a couple of times that an archtop can be built so that it sounds like a flattop. I wish it be true . (The discussion is a fairly long read, but worth for those interested in understanding why guitars are the way they are. Very interesting few bits there).

So I want to ask you guys, if you think it to be a possibility, or you may have played any archtop which produced a tone like a flattop!

I know, It kinda defeats the purpose of the design of archtop, but I would very much appreciate what ever you may want to share in this regard.

aG

If you'll go here and listen to 'Nokie's Blue Bottle' you'll hear your exact description:

http://www.howardemerson.com/music1.html

That's my 1927 Gibson L-5.

HE

[archtopGeek]

Originally Posted by sfden1

Not sure why you would want them to sound the same, or even similiar?

I don't fully understand the tone (my ears are still evolving ) so It's difficult to explain but lately my tone preference is drifting towards flattops. Yet my appreciation for aesthetics of flattops is underdeveloped.

Originally Posted by Howard Emerson

If you'll go here and listen to 'Nokie's Blue Bottle' you'll hear your exact description:

http://www.howardemerson.com/music1.html

That's my 1927 Gibson L-5.

HE

Thanks Howard. That Old Gibby of yours is quite close, and sounds like...um...daddy of my archtop.

Originally Posted by Howard Klepper

It's the difference between sounding "like a flattop," and sounding "more like a flattop."

Of course, but there were many others implying the same (quoted below). Sure nothing was explicitly said, and hence I am confused enough to ask it here.

Relevant excerpts from the link referred in the original post (my edits are in Blue)

Page one:

Several years ago I recall someone describing Sobell flat top guitars as 1/3 arch top. This was an observation I didn't agree with, but the point stuck in my mind.
The way I build my flat top guitars that they are possibly 40% arch top - due to the shape/arch and thicknessing, yet my guitars sound like a (rather wonderful!) flat tops - My work has moved in this direction as I find the structure of arch tops to be more capable of withstanding the force of the strings than traditional flat top steel string design. Yet at the same time I was never a great fan of the sound that came out of them.
Have a listen for yourself - the sound samples are played by the rather excellent Celtic guitarist Ian Stephenson.

http://www.myspace.com/nkforsterguitars

Page Two:

(requoted: Originally from sobell guitars website)
These arch-top guitars don’t have a typical arch-top sound. They have the good attack you might expect, but are also bright and rich with good sustain, suiting fingerstyle as well as plectrum playing. They have excellent separation; the 6 string is clear and incisive and the 12 string has none of the mushy wash of sound that can be a problem with flat-top 12 string guitars.

----

I had a 1929 round hole L-4 that was everything any flattop ever was.

----

Thanks for your response Nigel. If I understand you right the flattop could be designed to sound like an archtop, and opposite around. And still archtops in general tends to have a sound that differs from flattops in general. The sound of a guitar reflects the sum of many small decisions.

Page Three:

(Referring to above Comment)
This may be what I said, but no, it's not what I meant. Thank goodness I'm better at making guitars than talking about them!
Traditional archtops do sound very different from traditional flat tops, true, but what interests me is the way you can apply some arch top methods of construction to flat top design to improve the instruments ability to withstand the pull of the strings, a by product of which is increased seperation and improved clarity. This is more a case of incorperating ideas from different schools and coming up with something new.

Should have posted this in the first post, but that would remove the context and thus vulnerable to wrong interpretation (mostly by ME ).

aG

[devellis]

I think we're talking about two different types of archtops here. There are guitars with arched tops that are distinct from the classic Gibson archtop design.

The prototypic example may be the Howe-Orme guitars that first appeared in the mid 1890s. These had what was described as a "longitudinal hump" running the length of the top. The bulge kind of looks like a squat Quonset hut shaped into the guitar top. The Howe-Ormes had round soundholes and fixed pin bridges. I'm fairly sure they were essentially ladder braced, but with some much heavier arched top braces to support the longitudinal hump. (I'm extrapolating from the mandolins, which I know better than the guitars.) These were essentially substantially modified flat tops. They also had adjustable and removable necks with elevated fingerboards that were quite remarkable.

I believe that Nigel Forster has built instruments derived from this design (the top, not the removable neck). I know Rick Turner has built instruments of this type. These can be very powerful guitars. I sat next to Rick playing his Howe-Orme guitar on stage (I was faking on a Howe-Orme mandolin) and that guitar was a tone monster, especially for its vintage. But again, these are pin-bridge, round hole instruments that are quite different from the Gibson f-hole (or even oval hole) floating bridge design. I think the former can, in fact, sound like a flattop because its construction is quite similar.

Many flattops now have an induced, as opposed to carved, arch (as I'm quite sure the Howe-Orme guitars did; their mandolins definitely did). These induced arches, however, were the result of steaming and forming, not just the braces holding an arch on an otherwise flat top plate (as is common in modern fltattops). So, while it's legitimate to call instruments of the Howe-Orme style archtops, they shouldn't be confused with the Gibson-style archtops that we usually associate with that description. I've read at least some discussions that invoke the Howe-Orme design as a motivation for the induced arches used on many modern guitars.

[Losov]

The fills on Marty Robbins' recording of "El Paso" were done on an arch top.

[lw216316]

Originally Posted by Losov

The fills on Marty Robbins' recording of "El Paso" were done on an arch top.

...never knew that,
always thought it was just an acoustic flat top that sounded really good

thanks

know any more popular songs like that where an arch top was used ?

I just bought my first arch top last week - an Eastman AR805 CE.
So now I'm really interested in past examples of popular hits that used
arch tops.

- Larry

[usb_chord]

According to Mr. Emerson, a John Monteleone archtop sounds like a flattop when played acoustically.

Ribbecke's Halfling probably does, too.

[Bruce Sexauer]

The traditional "committed to projection" arch-top has parallel braces a little like a violin's bass-bar but both sides, and is usually pretty bright and requires a lot of input to get the sound out.

The modern arch-top usually has X braces, which can be at a wide variety of angles to each other. Combining this aspect with the possibility of a higher or lower arching in the plates gives huge control to the maker in regard to the tonal character of the guitar.

In general terms; higher arching will require more input, lower arching more sensitivity, and the wider the divergence of the X from parallel, the more fundamental oriented the tone, at some cost to treble. Therefore: a flat arch combined with X braces that run across more than they run lengthwise will result in a relatively sensitive and full sounding guitar, much more like a flat-top than like a Traditional Arch-top. I generally site Steve Anderson as the best known example of this style, but I am by no means aware of everyone out there, so I may be misplacing the credit.

I am actually building such a guitar as we speak, my 5th arch-top, and it is really a nice variation on my more common flat-top work.

[Brent Hutto]

There are some people like our own Howard Emerson or Steve Greene (with an "e") who get a sound from classic acoustic archtops that to my ears is like the very best flattop guitar tone taken one more step. It's just the ultimate guitar tone.

But then OTOH you have others like Eric Skye who play flattop guitars in a style that on a good day just about gets there without using an archtop at all.

And on the gripping hand you have freakish example like David Rawlings and his old (much modified) Epiphone that take the whole thing off into another dimension entirely.

There's a lot of interesting stuff out there in the area where arched and flat tops start converging. But it seems to depend a lot on how the guitar is being played. None of which has much at all to do with that old humbucker-on-an-archtop "jazz tone". Not that there's anything wrong with that (tm)...