Benefits/negatives of on-board system vs own installation

MartinMan1990 · #1 11-01-2016, 02:13 PM

Hey all. I have a few questions specifically related to on-board systems such as the ES2 by Taylor. So what are the actual benefits and negativities related to pre-installed on-board systems such as Taylors ES2? I know this seems like a simple answer, "the advantage would be that you can directly plug into an amp and play "live" to get an amplified acoustic sound." I get that. But what are some other advantages/negatives involved with such a system? I have always bought acoustic guitars with no pickup as I usually only play in the comfort of my home and have never gigged much. I will now be beginning to play out more in which I will need to be amplified in some way either by direct connection or via microphone. I am currently looking at either a Taylor 612 12 fret or 812 12fret which will occasionally be used live for gigging but in all honesty the majority of play will be on my own in a private setting or in an acoustic duo in which we usually play unplugged with one another anyway unless we are in fact playing out. From all the sound clips I was able to view on both instruments I have always preferred the sound of a mic to that of the ES2 system or a mic as well as the ES2 (Never the ES2 alone). Is this something of a surprise or do others feel this way? Being said would it be wise to mic up for live gigging or does this lead to more hassles? Another option would be to install my own pickup suck as a K and K mini but in all honesty I do not have much knowledge on these pickups and any advice would be appreciated. Lastly, I assume I could use the ES2 system and put it through an EQ or preamp to get a better sound I am looking for? I am basically trying to figure out if I should buy my next Taylor with or without onboard electronics and go from there. As always thanks for the help!

smurph1 · #2 11-01-2016, 02:23 PM

Hi Martin Man! Welcome aboard! I was in a band with a guy who insisted on mic-ing his acoustic, and so we had to put up with the constant bumping and popping before we finally had a "pickup intervention" LOL. The first thing he said after he installed the pickup was. "Man this sounds good" It has been my experience (45 years of playing) that generally factory installed electronics sound great because they are designed for that particular guitar. My 2 cents. Enjoy.

akafloyd · #3 11-01-2016, 05:45 PM

I can think of a couple of advantages of built in electronics: 1 - it's already installed, 2 - the battery is usually easily accessible, 3 - it probably doesn't sound terrible.

the downsides include: you may not like it, removing it will likely leave holes in the body of the guitar.

There are so many good options available I like to keep them available, and after market pickups are more easily reversible. I don't know if the K&K would be your favorite but it doesn't need a battery in the guitar body which is good for occasional use. Check out Doug Young's pickup comparison web page, you may get a head start on what to look for there.

krisls · #4 11-01-2016, 05:46 PM

Sorta depends who you ask. Mostly the purists will say.. and there is some truth to it... that a mic is the better/purer sound. Closer to real acoustic.

But, in most live settings a mic is more hassle than it's worth, thus.. pickups. I use a Tak but have tried others including the ES2 and they are all pretty good as a rule. Minor differences mostly. Also have a K&K in one guitar, easy self install if you go carefully.

As to what you will prefer it comes to what you're doing and where but I very much doubt you would be upset with the Taylor ES2 combo. I am also I will say quietly lusting after a Taylor 12 fret slothead, so.... If you love the guitar the pickup is almost secondary as long as it does its job. Taylor do know what they're about. Plenty of people use them and are happy.

Kris

Paultergeist · #5 11-01-2016, 06:02 PM

I play mainly nylon-stringed guitars. From my own experience, the OEM systems installed by the manufacturers on nylon-strung guitars i have owned /played have generally been terrible. There may exceptions, but I have not found them. I have even found myself living with the existing "barn door" cut-outs on guitars I liked -- but on which I swapped out electronics.

I do "get it" from the manufacturer's perspective: they need to sell guitars at an attractive price-point, and expensive on-board systems would raise the price too much. So for me, the negative of factory-installed electronics is the big hole in the side of the guitar for the electronics panel.

midwinter · #6 11-01-2016, 08:03 PM

As someone who is currently installing the third pickup system in his main guitar, I'd say the advantage of installing your own is that you can swap them out if you don't like them.

Bill Yellow · #7 11-02-2016, 03:40 AM

As you'll have seen, for aftermarket installation you can choose all sorts of pickups - under-saddle piezo transducer, transducers that sit under guitar top, magnetic under-string pickup, internal microphone - and various combinations of these. Generally, manufacturer build-ins are under saddle or bridge based. These give the PA guys the easiest bright clear sound that they can position well in the mix. They do not however convey much of the natural acoustic of the instrument. For solo work, and where onstage sound levels are not too high, some of the other pickup types can give a warmer tone, or pick up tapping if you're into that.

Of course then there's the option of having your own EQ pedal to shape the tone further, or (as Martin do) accept that the built in pickup is nasty and go through a digital modelling system to reconstruct the expected sound.

dberkowitz · #8 11-02-2016, 06:43 AM

Here's my argument against installed systems. Technology changes, and electronics reach their service life, and your guitar will outlast the electronics. So now you have a guitar in which you have a hole for which either the electronics you choose don't fit the hole, or the manufacturer no longer makes a system that fits.

As a luthier, I have come to a place where I simply don't offer electronics. I'll do everything to make that a possibility, but I no longer install them. The technology constantly changes and unless your business is to install pickups you simply don't have the experience with the variety of systems to install them efficiently. But lastly, it's the preamp holes I've always abhorred. If someone wants to cut a hole in a guitar I built for them, and they've paid and accepted the guitar, so be it. But I won't do it.

Mandobart · #9 11-02-2016, 07:45 AM

Many of my instruments (fiddles, mandolins, banjo) are too small for built-in preamps. On all my instruments including guitars and mandocello I use internal soundboard piezos and an external preamp (if required). My current best preamp is my Redeye, but I only use it if needed. No extra holes in the wood, easily upgraded to new technology, no batteries inside instruments.

Another factor is failure modes and signal chain induced noise. The less gear between your instrument and the sound reinforcement system the less likely a single piece of gear failing (preamp, pedal, cable) can kill your sound or cause unwanted noise. For me the best sound comes from instrument pickup to cable to HI Z input on my amp or mixer board. Every additional piece of gear in that chain (and its required cable) multiplies the probability of something going wrong. When I'm plugging into a house system without high impedance inputs I use the Redeye.

stevecuss · #10 11-02-2016, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dberkowitz

Here's my argument against installed systems. Technology changes, and electronics reach their service life, and your guitar will outlast the electronics. So now you have a guitar in which you have a hole for which either the electronics you choose don't fit the hole, or the manufacturer no longer makes a system that fits.

As a luthier, I have come to a place where I simply don't offer electronics. I'll do everything to make that a possibility, but I no longer install them. The technology constantly changes and unless your business is to install pickups you simply don't have the experience with the variety of systems to install them efficiently. But lastly, it's the preamp holes I've always abhorred. If someone wants to cut a hole in a guitar I built for them, and they've paid and accepted the guitar, so be it. But I won't do it.

+1 to this above. The technology is continually improving and changing. I think we're in the golden age of pickup technology. Having said that, I also think it depends greatly on the player and the guitar.

Some of us are more fastidious with our sound that our ability deserves

I go to a show, see a professional with some pretty old tech and half baked acoustic tone, then spend the next 2 hours blown away by the sheer musicianship and craft. Meanwhile, I come home and spend time reading the latest pickup technology....

So yeah, if you have a Taylor or Takamine or something with its own pickup system, no problem, it is probably just fine, honestly. But if you have a unique guitar, especially if it was built by a luthier, then I highly recommend finding the least invasive solution you can find as you may find yourself changing it in the coming years.

BastianS · #11 11-02-2016, 08:57 AM

To me, it's mostly an aesthetic thing. I think you're lucky if you can find a guitar that sounds great on its own and then also has a preamp installed that suits your taste. I often think about replacing my Taylor ES (1, with 9V) with an LR Baggs system but I'd mind the wholes in the sides of the guitar, even though they're small.
I'd rather buy a guitar without any electronics and then try different systems until something makes me cry.

Beagle1 · #12 11-02-2016, 06:02 PM

I can definitely see both sides of the argument, for and against an onboard system.

On the one hand, yes onboard systems leave holes in your guitar and if you ever get sick of the onboard system you may not be able to easily swap it out for another. Plus, there are a bunch of solid after-market systems out there (Baggs, B-Band, K&K, Trance, etc). If you have a great guitar that you love to play, you can probably eventually find an after-market system that works in your guitar.

IMO, the downside however is that it's hard to predict how well these systems will perform in YOUR guitar. You may have to try a few different systems before you find something you are truly happy with. It can get frustrating when you come to the realization that the pickup system you just spent $200 on is just never going to work for you and it's time to move on to something else. And even if you do find something you generally like, it may need an EQ, or external preamp, or a second source (mic, mag, SBT) to sound it's best.

So I think there is something to be said for having an onboard system *if* you can find one you like in a guitar that you enjoy playing. Now that's a tall order! But it's great having a guitar that you know you can plug direct into anything and get a good sound from it. Plus, you have the convenience of controlling volume, EQ, etc right from the guitar.

I personally struggled at times over the years with different after-market systems. I've tried most of the more popular systems out there with the exception of Trance and PUTW. I've finally found different solutions that work pretty well in my guitars. But for example, my guitar with the K&K always needs some sort of preamp and EQ. My guitar with the Baggs Anthem usually needs a little corrective EQ.

After years of seeing people show up with Maton guitars and consistently get great plugged-in tones, I finally bit the bullet a couple years ago and got a Maton 808 with one of the AP5 Pro pickup systems. I have never been happier with my plugged in sound and it totally ended my interest in messing around with after-market systems, preamps, EQ's, effects, etc. I mostly just bring the Maton out to the gigs these days and enjoy my other acoustics at home.

So anyway, if you already have a great guitar and don't mind tinkering, an after-market system is the way to go. But if you just want something simple that you can plugin and get a good sound out of, I think it's worthwhile exploring some of the onboard systems out there. Hope that helps!

midwinter · #13 11-02-2016, 08:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beagle1

You may have to try a few different systems before you find something you are truly happy with. It can get frustrating when you come to the realization that the pickup system you just spent $200 on is just never going to work for you and it's time to move on to something else. And even if you do find something you generally like, it may need an EQ, or external preamp, or a second source (mic, mag, SBT) to sound it's best.

I'd argue that that's often the case. I'm only ever content with my rig for whatever purpose I'm using it for at that particular moment.