Can someone explain how these modes are working together

[SantaCruzOMGuy]

Building on my initial post/question, and working in whatever key you choose, take these examples:

Example 1:
C Lydian over C chord, switching to G Mixolydian over C chord
(this sounds musically interesting to me)

Example 2:
I figured out this works in a similar matter:
D Dorian over Dminor Chord, switching to A Phrygian over Aminor Chord

Im seeing in example 1 you are playing the major scale of the chord you are moving to next, and when you get to that chord, you are playing the major scale of the previous chord.

Im seeing in example 2 you are playing the minor scale of the chord you are moving to next, and when you get to that chord, you are playing the minor scale of the previous chord.

Does this type of relationship only exist when you think of chords as being I and IV for major chords (or invert to V and I), or as being iii and vi for minor chords (or invert to vi and ii)? Does this concept have a name?

[Hotspur]

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

Building on my initial post/question, and working in whatever key you choose, take these examples:

Example 1:
C Lydian over C chord, switching to G Mixolydian over C chord
(this sounds musically interesting to me)

But you're not playing G Mixolydian there. You're playing C major.

As to whether you're playing C Lydian or C major with accidentals over the first chord doesn't matter very much (you always have access to all 12 notes!) but the notes of G Mixolydian are the same notes as the notes of C major. The static C chord is going to keep C as your tonal center, and the G note will, almost regardless of what you do, be a 5th, not a root.

This really gets to what I was talking about earlier: in terms of what notes they contain, the only difference between C Lydian and G Mixo is that C Lydian contains an F#, while G Mixo contains an F-natural. The real differences between them are the functional roles of the notes, but those only change if the underlying harmony changes, which is not the case here.

So here you're either playing C Lydian and C Major, or just playing in C major and using a sharp 4 for part of the time.

Example 2:
I figured out this works in a similar matter:
D Dorian over Dminor Chord, switching to A Phrygian over Aminor Chord

In this case, the tonal center might move, but again, you've found a really complicated way to describe a simple change.

D Dorian is D E F G A B C. A Phrygian is A Bb C D E F G. In terms of the notes you play, the only difference is the B being flat. If you played this progression slowly, the tonal center might move to A, and you'd actually be in A Phrygian. If you don't, though, this is going to feel like you're in Dm the whole time.

Im seeing in example 1 you are playing the major scale of the chord you are moving to next, and when you get to that chord, you are playing the major scale of the previous chord.

Oh, did you mean that the second chord in your first example was a G major chord?

In that case, there's an easier way to explain why this sounds "cool" - the F# is the leading tone for the G major chord. It creates a tension (particularly against the G note in the C maj chord) which is resolved by the move to the G major chord, while the F-natural is a very common accidental that lends a bluesy sound.

In my opinion, this is a much more useful way to understand what's going on in that progression. Leading tones are really magical things which can be applied in a variety of circumstances and don't require a modal framework.

It really seems like you're making a relatively simple thing much more complicated than it needs to be by thinking in terms of modes.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Why wouldn't you want to use modes in improvisation?

hunter

It's semantics, really. Would you say you "use keys" in improvisation?

You kind of do, if the music you're improvising in is in a key (or keys). That's because you're using the material the song is written in.

That's really the same thing with modes. If the music is written in a mode or modes, that's obviously what you use when improvising on it.

It's just a matter of using words in the least ambiguous way we can.

[Dalegreen]

a "general" rule of thumb

ionian (major): use over all major chords
dorian / phrygian / aeolian : use over minor chords including m7, m9, m11
lydian : use over major 7 chords as well as #11 extensions
mixoylydian: dominant 7th chords and extensions (9th, 11th, 13th)
locrain: minor 7b5 chords

The use and explanation of modes is some times explained in such difficult terms that it deters one from looking closer. Keep it simple and play and use your ear

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Seems like a complicated way to analyze things. Fact is using modes is exactly using functional harmony.

Well, it depends how we define modes...

Originally Posted by zhunter

Go up to my example, the iv-7, bVIIdom. I know songs that use these changes. They are turn arounds, not extended modal interludes.

Yes.

Originally Posted by zhunter

These changes do not come from the chords diatonic to the key of the song. And I do use a mode to help make good note choices.
I could go through all of the chord by chord analysis or simply understand that this cadence is borrowed from the Aeolian mode

Ah! OK - this is about modal interchange then, or mode mixture. Not about modal music as such.

It's a narrow distinction, but an important one. You're right, borrowed chords can still behave functionally. "Modes" (in the best sense) don't.

On the face of it iv7 and bVII7 could come from the parallel minor, but in practice (in jazz anyway) that's not how it works.
Bb7 in key of C major is a lydian dominant chord. It will have a #11, not a perfect 11. The scale is derived simply by altering the C major scale so as to fit the chord (flattening the B and A).
The Fm7 is a little different - apparently introduced to make a ii-V pair, and of course for a little voice-leading to Bb7 (otherwise, as Fm(maj7) or Fm6, it would be more or less the same as Bb7). The scale would indeed be the same as C aeolian.

Originally Posted by zhunter

and play notes from that mode in the key of the song. Trust me it works and is much simpler than investigating each chord.

Sure. Simple is good! The important thing is to see the bigger picture, how the chords connect with one another: function and voice-leading. That normally results in the simplest analysis.
What we call the resulting sets of notes is less important - it's just that modal terms are ripe for confusion, if the context is not explained.

Originally Posted by zhunter

When the iv-7, bVIIdom are used, the key center is still the one, just an Aeolian one and not an Ionian one.

Well, I'd say the key centre is still major. It's just going through a temporary minor (ha literal!) deviation.

Originally Posted by zhunter

In your example D7 is functioning as a secondary dominant. Not a mode derived chord. A different approach is probably more appropriate. Notes from a mode can certainly be applied successfully. The 4th degree of the melodic minor scale is a good choice for a II-dom chord. Again analysis of the functional harmony tells me this.

If it's not a secondary dominant, I agree. If it's V/V, probably not.
I mean, anything is OK if you can make it work, I'm only talking about common practice.

[SantaCruzOMGuy]

Originally Posted by Hotspur

Oh, did you mean that the second chord in your first example was a G major chord?

Thanks for catching my typo, that is what I meant.
Its interesting to have been redirected to voice leading. So much of this for me started with trying to understand what voice leading is, as it seems it allows you to create more interesting music.

Voice leading gets me thinking in terms of a circle of fifths, being able to reach to adjacent chords not in the diatonic key of a particular chord progression, sort of like a Venn diagram. Hotel California in musical application.

My desire to use modes is rooted more in songwriting than improv.

[SantaCruzOMGuy]

I concluded that what I'm hearing, for either my....

1)major chord example: C major chord for a few bars with C Lydian chordal melody notes, moving to G major chord for a few bars with G Mixolydian chordal melody notes

2) minor chord example: D minor chord for a few bars with D dorian chordal melody notes, moving to A minor chord for a few bars with A phrygian chordal melody notes

Both of these examples you are moving up and fifths and back down in fourths. I've found its easy to fall back in fourths on the circle of fifths by leading into that step back with a dominant five of the pre-change key, but a step forward to the next fifth isn't takes more like maneuvering.

Playing that Lydian scale seems to help get you up a fifth.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

Thanks for catching my typo, that is what I meant.
Its interesting to have been redirected to voice leading. So much of this for me started with trying to understand what voice leading is, as it seems it allows you to create more interesting music.

Voice leading gets me thinking in terms of a circle of fifths, being able to reach to adjacent chords not in the diatonic key of a particular chord progression, sort of like a Venn diagram. Hotel California in musical application.

Yes, Hotel California is a good example, with its chromatic descending line. It's still all pretty much in a B minor ballpark, though - the voice-leading isn't taking it out of key.

Another one that springs to mind is Lay Lady Lay, with its odd C#m-G chord change (key of A major). You can see the descending lines on strings 1 and 4, and pairs of shared tones on strings 2 and 3:

 A  C#m  G  Bm   A
-5---4---3---2---0-----------
-5---5---3---3---2----------
-6---6---4---4---2----------
-7---6---5---4---2----------
-7---4---5---2---0----------
-5---4---3---2---0----------

Originally Posted by SantaCruzOMGuy

My desire to use modes is rooted more in songwriting than improv.

OK.

The concept of "mode mixture" (which I mentioned above) is a kind of half-way house between keys and modes, a blending of both concepts.

In a sense, "strict" modal music is quite a limited style, focussed on one-chord grooves, very few changes, static moods (although changing from one mode to another is still an option).
In comparison, keys are open to enormous levels of flexibility, and you can spend a lifetime not exhausting all of them. You have two kinds of borrowed chords for a start: secondary chords of various kinds (and their substitutes), to enhance forward motion for a "brighter" feel; and (in major keys) chords borrowed from mixolydian or the minor modes to produce a "darker" feel. Minor keys (see Hotel California) are already open to plenty of flexibility, given the variable 6th and 7th degrees of the scale.
When it comes to voice-leading (which is less of an issue in modal music) any and every chromatic note is always available, for movement in either direction. And then there's all the modulation possibilities of course...

The concept of mode mixture covers all kinds of borrowed chords. Sometimes such chords are just thrown in for dramatic effect - no obvious functional link between chords either side - other times they can be used to produce interesting voice-leading effects.

Where rock deals in what you might call "true" modal effects is when it hangs on one chord for a while; or a 2- or 3-chord loop or vamp that doesn't go anywhere; or adds interesting extensions to a chord purely for colour (not for any functional or voice-leading reason). That's a big thing in a lot of rock, of course - the idea of using a chord purely for how it sounds in its own right, regardless of how it links with the others. But as soon as it does link with the others - maybe sharing a scale, or having a clear leading sound forming a "progression" - then a "key" interpretation may make more sense than a modal one. But it's not really a big deal either way. It's just words for sounds...

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by JonPR

On the face of it iv7 and bVII7 could come from the parallel minor, but in practice (in jazz anyway) that's not how it works.

In practice that is exactly how it works. You should try it.

hunter

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by zhunter

In practice that is exactly how it works. You should try it.

hunter

I've tried it both ways. I like the 7#11 way.

[zhunter]

Originally Posted by JonPR

I've tried it both ways. I like the 7#11 way.

Good that you found something you like.

hunter

[Dalegreen]

I was taught iv7's and bVII7's (and bIII7 / bIImaj7 / bIIImaj7)as "modal interchanges" used in the context of the key one is in.
They are (almost) just as common as secondary dominants in the jazz realm.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by zhunter

Good that you found something you like.

hunter

Same to you.
I hold no allegiance to jazz theory, I only thought it was worth pointing out that jazz convention defines bVIIs as lydian dominant. (I do try not to take jazz theory too seriously .)
I agree with you, the parallel aeolian (of the key) works as well. Personally I just like the idea (and the sound) of keeping the major 3rd of the key around the bVII7 chord.

[JonPR]

Originally Posted by Dalegreen

I was taught iv7's and bVII7's (and bIII7 / bIImaj7 / bIIImaj7)as "modal interchanges" used in the context of the key one is in.
They are (almost) just as common as secondary dominants in the jazz realm.

It depends on context and function (is what I was taught ).
Modal interchange would usually apply to chromatic maj7s (bII, bIII, bVII), and to iv7s. But when it comes to dom7s, there's a theory that any dom7-type that is not acting as a V (or secondary V) is lydian dominant.
Clearly with a bVII7 chord, those theories are in competition. Unless the chord symbol says 7#11, it's obviously open which scale you choose. (Theories are only about common practices anyway, and often crude simplifications of practice.)

[Dalegreen]

Originally Posted by JonPR

It depends on context and function (is what I was taught ).
Modal interchange would usually apply to chromatic maj7s (bII, bIII, bVII), and to iv7s. But when it comes to dom7s, there's a theory that any dom7-type that is not acting as a V (or secondary V) is lydian dominant.
Clearly with a bVII7 chord, those theories are in competition. Unless the chord symbol says 7#11, it's obviously open which scale you choose. (Theories are only about common practices anyway, and often crude simplifications of practice.)

and here I thought it was just to keep things simple when it comes to composing a chart, that's how I use and apply modal interchanges
When analyzing a chord progression of a jazz chart is is not too difficult to point out modal interchanges thru out a piece.
A good understanding of the theory is great, and as you say, theories are common practice. In the end it is how the player interprets the chart.