#61
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Yes, ljguitar, my tongue was boring a hole in my cheek on this one-even a slight touch of sarcasm perhaps. I just think everyone makes purchasing decisions for a lot of different reasons which may or may not be rational. But certainly we justify (or try to) these decisions to ourselves when we spend a fair amount of money on ourselves trying to cure this GAS disease. I have to think that if we play a better guitar, we will play longer and thus get better. And receive more enjoyment. So I don't think there is an ultimate guitar. I like my Yamaha and Taylor for different reasons. The Taylor is better than the Yamaha in my opinion. I'm hoping the custom I'm in the process of ordering will be better than the Taylor. Otherwise, why spend the time and money in this endeavor?
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#62
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An issue that seems to cut across the factory vs handbuilt issue is how much personalization a buyer wants. I consider personalization a bit risky. My practice (more with mandolins than guitars at this stage) has always been to give the luthier a good deal of latitude, figuring he/she knows better than I how to produce a good instrument. If someone builds guitars that have a certain sound that I like, I'm loath to recommend too many variations from their standard practices. So, even if having a new instrument built for me (which I've done on occasion), I'd probably not request too many features that would be unique to me, but more a representative example of the builder's work. As has been noted, little changes can have big effects. If I suddenly request a different neck profile, slightly deeper body, alternative scale length, and novel wood for the back and sides, aren't I depriving myself of all the standardization that the builder (either factory or individual) has acquired? I realize I'm overstating this a bit, but where along the continuum of modification does customization run the risk of unpredictable tone changes?
A different approach is to find a source that you consistently like (again, either a mega-factory, boutique shop, or individual luthier) and say, "Do for me what you do so well. Make me a box with your characteristic sound and feel." The results should be predictable (assuming the builder is conscientious and experienced enough to have developed some consistency). The instrument should be a good exemplar of the characteristic qualities associated with that builder. In the case of the big builders, the process may not be as much a personal request as a matter of sampling what's available and finding the one that fits the player's mental prototype of what is sought: "Yeah, this one has that BrandX tone that I'm after!" As someone who has owned multiple instruments of quite different types (and who takes pleasure in those differences), I find that I'm not that strongly biased toward a list of specifics, as long as the instrument works well as a whole. Different neck widths feel different to me depending on a lot of other factors, so that I don't necessarily have a "favorite" width with all others being a problem. Bound or unbound fingerboards, rosette designs, even wood choices, are not necessarily deal breakers for me. Nor do I necessarily have a favorite neck profile or a favorite degree of neck relief. Different factors in combination give results that are more significant (to me, at least) than a cataloging of specific dimensions. I have often found that the things I think I would like in an instrument don't match very well with the instruments I end up preferring when I can sample a bunch at once. So, I place a premium on either (a) being able to try before I buy, or (b) getting an instrument with relatively few custom features that might have unintended effects on the experience of the instrument as a whole. That combination of values directs me toward small builders who give care to their individual instruments but who also produce in large enough numbers that I can anticipate what a specific combination of features will add up to because I've encountered it on multiple occasions (and, hopefully, have actually played the instrument I hope to buy). I recognize that this is a kind of ideosycratic view of things and I recognize that some people do really have very specific preferences for lots of aspects of their guitars. Some musical genres (like bluegrass mandolin) have an established orthodoxy and a certain, representative sound is widely admired with other tonal variants seeming out of place. I play mostly Irish traditional music, where there is far less orthodoxy concerning the proper tone of fretted instruments. I suspect that individuals with strong personal preferences will gravitate more strongly to custom builds (or will consistently buy a brand/model that they know fits their bill). People more like me may prefer to test different instruments and take one home that they experience first hand as meeting their needs, even if they stray from their preconceived preferences. No value judgments intended here. Just trying to understand why some may strongly prefer custom builds while others may not. As others have said, the important thing is to get something that will provide ample enjoyment that matches or exceeds the cost of the instrument in question. We each will find our own path to that reward.
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Bob DeVellis |
#63
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You could check out these guys and gals. http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/leftbrainluthiers/ Fascinating and interesting reading it is. Glen |
#64
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Merle Travis - Custom Gibson, Customized Bigsby Martin D-28, Paul Bigsby The Ventures - Custom Mosrite Leo Kottke - Boz(h)o Padunavac Eric Clapton - Fender Custom Shop, Zemaitis, Henderson Clarence White - Roy Noble Doc Watson - Gallagher Now maybe these instruments were not used on the tunes that you deem their most significant work, but they all have used custom instruments. As did other somewhat significant players like Django Reinhardt, Chet Atkins, Jim Hall, and Andres Segovia among many many others. On the other hand, I absolutely agree with your central points - buy what you like, the subtle details of the guitar matter a lot more to the player than the listener, and it's the music and musician, not the instrument. Fran
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E ho`okani pila kakou ma Kaleponi Slack Key in California - www.kaleponi.com My YouTube clips The Homebrewed Music Blog |
#65
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Bryan |
#66
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Travis- The Bigsby was a re-necked standard D-28, most of his "customs" were cosmetic additions. Ventures - The Mosrites were factory made, again, hardy what we would define as a modern custom Leo Kottke did most of his early recordings with Gibson B45's and Martin D-28's. The Bozo came later. Eric Clapton used standard factory Fenders and Gibsons for many years. Clarence White- Owned Nobles and Whitebooks but did the majority of his recordings with D-18 and D-28;s. Doc Watson came to Gallaghers later. Did his important early work with J-45s and D-18s. Was discovered playing a Les Paul in a dance band. |
#67
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Post that is oldie but goodie
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I don't know if you're still on this forum or not, but here goes: I recently bought a 12 string yammie via mail order. I then took it to a local luthier for setup. He only charged me "$30 US dollars." I paid him $100. Though his work was worth even more, he still was reluctant to take it. I just sent him your post (quoted above) to encourage him to know that there are those of us "out there" that appreciate the precision he has achieved through 40 years of work and craftsmanship. Yes...I know the your post was registered long ago, but it still rings true. Very true. There are too many people who think it's somehow treasonous for a skilled technician (artist, actually) to charge a fair price for the work of a skilled luthier. Though I can't afford a hand buiit guitar at this point of my (almost retired) career, I don't begrudge their fair compensation for a job well-done. |
#68
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I never bought a custom guitar, but here goes for what it's worth.
I like bicycles and have bought two custom frames from a well known builder. One was made of steel and one of titanium. Both of them were built for me. Both times I was fitted for the bikes and I was able to describe what I wanted. Along the way, I was able to pick out exactly which components I wanted and bought them myself. I was able to discuss progress with the builder and see pictures of the bikes in the various stages of being built. The results were great and I love both of them. I have about $4,000 in each bike. Today, comparable new bikes with Chinese made carbon frames that you can buy in shops anywhere go for over $10,000. I know people who have bought them. To me, the whole experience of going through the custom process was great. I learned a lot, and ended up with two good bikes that I still love. I liked the whole process. I can see why someone would want to go through a boutique builder for a new guitar and end up with something that looks and plays great. But, there is also something to be said for buying a guitar from an established builder who is also capable of building great guitars and builds a lot of them. I bought three and I love them. |
#69
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@ Rounder ^^^^^
My dream bike, if I could ever afford it, would be to take the train to Northern Italy and pick up a Colnago Arabesque frame in red and chrome ordered as a custom build from the workshop. Have it fitted with a Campag group set and then ride it home across the Alps, through France and back to Wales. Regarding guitars: Sometimes the timbre we may want isn't going to be found in a luthier build, because it is a very specific "off-the-shelf" timbre. One that we have heard thousands of times on records and at gigs. So we buy a J45 because it sounds like a J45, or a D-18 because it sounds like a D-18. I'm lucky in that my favourite instruments are my plywood ones. They are pragmatic and sound bloody great to me. I don't need a beautiful, rich sonerous guitar. But I sure do appreciate players who can make such melodious instruments sing. A custom guitar would be wasted in my hands. I would like a custom built bicycle though.
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I'm learning to flatpick and fingerpick guitar to accompany songs. I've played and studied traditional noter/drone mountain dulcimer for many years. And I used to play dobro in a bluegrass band. |
#70
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Evri……beautiful part of the world
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Chris Stern Guitars by: Bown Wingert Kinscherff Sobell Circa Olson Ryan Fay Kopp McNally Santa Cruz McAlister Beneteau Fairbanks Franklin Collings Tippin Martin Lowden Northworthy Pre-War GC Taylor Fender Höfner 44 in total (no wife) Around 30 other instruments Anyone know a good psychiatrist? www.chrisstern.com |
#71
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As a guitarmaker of nearly a half century I look at it as a percentage of market Vs creating demand for a new market. Manufacturers have a different economic model. If we are fair about it we have to admit there would be no guitar market if not for the lower cost instruments that make the instrument accessible to a wider population. Individual guitar makers are competing in a very small cross section of the overall market. Different people have varied backgrounds and attract guitarists for different reasons. If you are attracted to flat pick style you might want to make Dreadnaughts, if you are a classical player you probably will aspire to build the best sounding classicals, etc...... Often the individual maker is squeezed by their ability to acquire market share. when there are 1000s doing what you want to do it becomes more difficult to find buyers. The individual guitar making boom started in the 1960's. There were few people making guitars when I started in 1976. If you took a guitar out to show, people would react with amazement. Now if you show a guitar you are asked if you know about other guitar makers. I decided 30 plus years ago that I wanted to be identified for instruments that bear my creative stamp and not concerned about the holy grail lust that is out there for what is already known. If we look at what is important using three factors, Quality of craft, Quality of Materials and Design, which is most critical? I have been focused on design all of these years, it does not mean I have no understanding of how to make guitars of many aesthetics but ultimately its the creative design aspect that separates one entity from another, its the same for a manufacturer as it is an individual maker. If we look back over history it has been meaningful innovation that has furthered the art form and driven musical aspiration. There were mando orchestras so people could hear the band. The Martin aesthetic began in the late 1920's by expanding the steel string guitar into a larger, more cello tambour, sound. When more vol was desired there was the resonator cone to increase vol for lead instruments. In classical guitars over the last 50 years there has been a direction towards high strength to weight ratio in top design, literally putting air into tops to increase amplitude. So, at the end of the day, what can we as makers do to offer a new creative aesthetic to move the ball forward. For me, the intent is to not just fill the market with another guitar like what is already there, its to design something that attracts musician creatively and inspires, something that can not be acquired elsewhere. That starts with guitar design and now has expanded to the Go AA amplification system I have been working towards for 12 years. It is time people can rely on their guitars to deliver at higher vol when needed and still be great acoustic instruments. Your post is well done, It is a question close to all of us making guitars. |
#72
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I have a Gibson J45 that just went back to the shop for a second time for manufacturing issues... first a finish blemish (bad enough to send it back) and the second time was for a bridge lifting up. It's fixed, and I still love the guitar but it has me rethinking where to focus my next round of GAS.
Was thinking I wanted the Gibson fixed bridge Hummingbird, or Martin D-18 Authentic - but having dealt with these issues, (and hearing about the Martin binding issues) I'm re-thinking. Right now I'm focused on a Kopp Bird, thinking that would get me the bird I want but with more re-assurances in the quality of the build. Not sure on the D-18, probably still get the Martin because I really want one, but I'm wary of spending that much and still having issues.
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2018 Gibson Vintage J45 1986 Guild D25 1968 Gibson SG ----- For attempting to learn how to record:
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