mic'ing a guitar - sm57 vs rode nt5

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

Oddly, you have probably seen paired SM57s all your life, and didn't realize it.
Almost every President since Nixon uses paired 57s with the big wind screens at the POTUS podium.

you can google and find thousands of pics of various presses with either one or two 57s. (didn't post to avoid politics). Apparently this is just "system redundancy", NOT that folks want to hear speeches in stereo.

I am wondering if those pairs were not just redundancy but maybe to accomplish this.

Now these were condensers positioned vertically but I think the theory is the same


"The Wall of Sound was designed to act as its own monitor system, and it was therefore assembled behind the band so the members could hear exactly what their audience was hearing. Because of this, a special microphone system had to be designed to prevent feedback. The Dead used matched pairs of condenser microphones spaced 60 mm apart and run out-of-phase. The vocalist sang into the top microphone, and the lower mic picked up whatever other sound was present in the stage environment. The signals were summed, the sound that was common to both mics (the sound from the Wall) was cancelled, and only the vocals were amplified."

[broy]

Originally Posted by jim1960

In that case, wouldn't it make more sense to get a microphone better suited for vocals? Perhaps an LDC?

Curveball. Time to do some homework.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by broy

Noted, and the most sensible option. I would like to record the guitar in stereo while singing though, that's the barrier here.

Ok so to back up a bit :: In order to record a guitar in stereo you need 2 mic's > 2 inputs > and pre's ) And simultaneously record a vocal means a 3 rd mic- > input > pre WHICH Means an interface with at least 3 mic inputs and mic pre's ( likely will be a 4 mic pre/interface as they are usually either 2 or 4 channels )

So given you already have the 57 and 58 which will work as a guitar pair-- you probably should first consider what kind of budget you have for an LDC And then what kind of interface of mic pre you have and IF you will need a new 4 channel unit ? So if that is more than you would like to spend currently you might consider (for now ) just recording the guitar withj the 57 and 58 and then dub the vocal on the 58

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by broy

Rudy - you don't have a need for any acoustic treatment?
.

He is in a fairly large room with high vaulted/angled ceilings (to redirect reflections) -- with a big dormer and sky light to help break up reflections.
And a right angle stair case to also breakup reflections

The ceilings and the dormer are diffusers
The carpet under him is an absorber
The carpeted stairs are both diffusers and absorbers in two directions
The stair baluster is a diffuser in two directions

All that is no doubt way way better than a rectangle flat ceiling room

[broy]

Originally Posted by TBman

I have a pair of SM57 which I tried out in the past. My Se8 SDC mics have better clarity, but the 57's were fine. I'll do comparison recordings and post them up later.

I missed this earlier, thank you for the input and offer. If you get a chance, I'll watch for a comparison post.

Originally Posted by KevWind

Ok so to back up a bit :: In order to record a guitar in stereo you need 2 mic's > 2 inputs > and pre's ) And simultaneously record a vocal means a 3 rd mic- > input > pre WHICH Means an interface with at least 3 mic inputs and mic pre's ( likely will be a 4 mic pre/interface as they are usually either 2 or 4 channels )

So given you already have the 57 and 58 which will work as a guitar pair-- you probably should first consider what kind of budget you have for an LDC And then what kind of interface of mic pre you have and IF you will need a new 4 channel unit ? So if that is more than you would like to spend currently you might consider (for now ) just recording the guitar withj the 57 and 58 and then dub the vocal on the 58

Hi Kev - your right, I need to think everything through first before I do anything - but here's where i'm at right now.

I was really just considering either another SM57 or budget SDC pair to get a stereo recording of my acoustic (while singing into a SM 58). My impression from feedback on this thread is I can use the SM57s, but some of the SDC options discussed (Behringer C-2, sE8...) would yield a better acoustic guitar recording, so I'm leaning in that direction.

Equipment wise, I have the Presonus Audiobox 44VSL (4 channels, 2 w/ phantom power) so was thinking if I got a pair of SDCs for guitar, those would use the 2 channels w/ phantom power and I could run the SM 58 for vocals in one of the other 2.

With respect to looking at LDCs, I had not even considered it - but I'm going to think about it now. I feel that if the SM57s are not going to yield as good a guitar recording as the C-2s, I'll want to get the C-2s, before I start considering a LDC... give me 15 minutes and i'll probably change my mind.

Thank you again for the input, being able to get feedback is very much appreciated!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by broy

Rudy - you don't have a need for any acoustic treatment?

It would probably help, but I really like simplicity and being able to record quickly when the inspiration strikes me.

I'm using the Doug Fearn podcasts "The space in which you record" and "Recording in improvised spaces" as good excuses why I opt for diffusion for my main "treatment" option.

I highly recommend that anyone interested in recording audio listen to ALL of his podcasts.

KevWind has very good points about the space. Again, the nice thing about a portable multi-track is you can use whatever space sounds the best to you.

What you can't see in the overhead photo is that the space extends under that upper hand rail into an equally large open kitchen. The bad part about that is it contains my arch-nemesis, a Frigidaire side by side that was designed to constantly emit copious amounts of very unusual and odd noises at relatively high volume.

I work around it's schedule, trying to get whatever done before it decides to wheeze uncontrollably. I could un-plug it, but that would require remembering to plug it back in!

If you need to record stereo guitar and vocal at the same time, your 4 input interface will work, but it would be better to pick up a external phantom power box and use a LDC for your vocal. A SM-57 could work, but again, it limits the sonic capabilities of your vocal. The larger problem with doing stereo guitar and separate vocal will be isolating them enough that you can mix them effectively.

If you practice doing the guitar part and then overdubbing the vocal you'll end up with isolated tracks so you can edit them effectively, and also give you the ability to easily correct the occasional clammed note or phrase.

In the case of what I've shown in the photo the Zoom Livetrak L8 would let me record 6 mics simultaneously if I wanted to do that. I have a Zoom R12 to do 8 inputs simultaneously, but that's not my normal methodology. The simpler you can work, the better.

[TBman]

Here's a quick and dirty comparison. Not sure if this helps. I'm having a bit of a fumbled fingers day.


sE 8 SDC mics:

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SM57 dynamic mics:

[Bowie]

57's and 58s are really raunchy for acoustic guitar. They are good for upper-midrange sources (electric cabs, snare, some vocals) but there are so many better choices for acoustic.

I highly recommend considering an SDC pair with polar patterns. Even if they are cheap ones. This will give you great opportunities to experiment with mic placements and configurations. The micing is the real key to acoustic recording and it's not something you can learn by copying. Sweet spots will vary for each guitar, song, etc. Good mics will sound bad if your mic placement skills haven't developed. So, don't feel that you need to spend a lot when starting out.

I'm not a fan of the KM184. I think it's a bit of a trap as it's an relatively affordable Neumann, and people trust that name, but there's a reason that many pros dislike them. The freq response is odd. I found them to ruin the midrange for me and I'd even take the cheap Oktavas over the 184s.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by broy

Hi All,

Right now I have a Shure SM57 mic and a SM58 mic. I use the SM58 for vocals and the SM57 for guitar. I want to be able to record guitar in stereo.

You might find the demos I did in the sticky section useful:

There's a demo using stereo SM57's on this page:

https://www.acousticguitarforum.com/...&postcount=116

And here's a similar shootout that includes a pair of NT5s:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCWCI6bf1BU

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by KevWind

I am wondering if those pairs were not just redundancy but maybe to accomplish this.

Now these were condensers positioned vertically but I think the theory is the same


"The Wall of Sound was designed to act as its own monitor system, and it was therefore assembled behind the band so the members could hear exactly what their audience was hearing. Because of this, a special microphone system had to be designed to prevent feedback. The Dead used matched pairs of condenser microphones spaced 60 mm apart and run out-of-phase. The vocalist sang into the top microphone, and the lower mic picked up whatever other sound was present in the stage environment. The signals were summed, the sound that was common to both mics (the sound from the Wall) was cancelled, and only the vocals were amplified."

I have no "insider" knowledge, but according to a Discovery Channel doc, a tech for the Whitehouse said it was purely for system redundancy...then added in his years as the AV guy, he's never seen a mic failure.

[broy]

Originally Posted by TBman

Here's a quick and dirty comparison. Not sure if this helps. I'm having a bit of a fumbled fingers day.

Thank you much, really appreciate you taking the time, helps a lot!

Originally Posted by Doug Young

You might find the demos I did in the sticky section useful:

Finding these and all your comparisons super useful. They can be GAS inducing though

Originally Posted by Bowie

57's and 58s are really raunchy for acoustic guitar.

Yeah, kind of starting to hear a theme.

Thank you all again.

[KevWind]

Originally Posted by dnf777

I have no "insider" knowledge, but according to a Discovery Channel doc, a tech for the Whitehouse said it was purely for system redundancy...then added in his years as the AV guy, he's never seen a mic failure.

Interesting I guess I was envisioning like the inauguration speeches outside in front of the Capital building that might have a lot of background noise ..

[broy]

Long story short - and the Behringer C-2s for $60 is the winner. I feel that's worth the price of admission - giving me the initial set up I was hoping for, and then being a baseline to come up with a real wish list for equipment that will probably cost a bit more.

Thank you all again for the input. Happy Saturday!

[Rudy4]

Originally Posted by broy

Long story short - and the Behringer C-2s for $60 is the winner. I feel that's worth the price of admission - giving me the initial set up I was hoping for, and then being a baseline to come up with a real wish list for equipment that will probably cost a bit more.

Thank you all again for the input. Happy Saturday!

At least you don't have to agonize over the decision process any longer!

Not the seem like a Behringer fanboy, I'll also say that if you want to try another dynamic with your SM57 that Behringer makes pretty extraordinary 57 and 58 clones in that less than $30 range. I purchased a couple of the XM8500 mics to try out and was pleasantly surprised by them. Sweetwater reviewers obviously agree.

I keep an XM8500 permanently on my music / mic stand and throw the whole thing in the car to transport my very portable gigging setup. At the price I don't mind risking it, although it's proved to be very robust.

[dnf777]

Originally Posted by broy

Long story short - and the Behringer C-2s for $60 is the winner. I feel that's worth the price of admission - giving me the initial set up I was hoping for, and then being a baseline to come up with a real wish list for equipment that will probably cost a bit more.

Thank you all again for the input. Happy Saturday!

Good strategy. The C2s should free up some green for things that will enhance home recording far beyond expensive mics!