Which Way To Go?

[Skip Ellis]

I've owned lots of nice classical guitars incl handmades by a couple of very prestigious builder and several Spanish made incl Pavan TP-30 and some others in the $1500-$2000 range. The latest was a Cordoba GK Studio (blanca with pickup). I've been thinking of getting a flamenco negra but am worried about the lack of sustain and the 'growly' tone. My problem is, I want flamenco action and classical tone and I've never been able to find a classical that I could lower the action enough. It seems to me that builders should use a little steeper neck angle and higher saddle to address this problem - leave the action high for those classical players who want it that way, but give others some adjustment leeway. Style-wise, I play a little bit of everything from Chet to classical to jazz chord melody and bossa nova. Any suggestions in the $1000-$1500 range?

[tkoehler1]

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

It seems to me that builders should use a little steeper neck angle and higher saddle to address this problem

I tried a Ben Woods Signature Model flamenco guitar at Guitar Center just last week. It had weak trebles but boy did it ever have fantastic action. So low to the frets and easy to play but no buzzing. There seemed to be more relief in the neck as well so I'm not sure if was the neck angle or the neck relief.

Why aren't more classical guitars set up this way? There's no drawbacks. I could still dig in with no buzzing.

TK

[Dogsnax]

Take a look at the Navarro Student Flamenco Negra.....awesome flamenco guitar, running around $1,300 new these days. Pau Ferro will give it a tiny bit more sustain, but the overall build strategy with any true flamenco is to limit sustain as much as possible. I made the switch to all flamenco guitars and I love it....

[offkey]

Originally Posted by Dogsnax

Take a look at the Navarro Student Flamenco Negra.....awesome flamenco guitar, running around $1,300 new these days. Pau Ferro will give it a tiny bit more sustain, but the overall build strategy with any true flamenco is to limit sustain as much as possible. I made the switch to all flamenco guitars and I love it....

I second this opinion. I own one of these and would not trade it for anything else, well, anything else that I have heard. Lol. Really beautiful tone, it plays much like a classical to me.

[rick-slo]

Some buzzing is part of the flamenco sound. If you don't want that then you can't use a typical flamenco guitar action height setup (or play very, very quietly).

[Skip Ellis]

Thanks for the suggestions, so far, however, I forgot to mention that anything I buy MUST have an ebony fingerboard. The Navarro would be fine except for the rosewood board. I'm thinking I'll end up with a Cordoba C-10 and lower the action as far as it will go. I tried the Cordoba Crossover but couldn't bond with it at all and sent it back - I really prefer a full width neck.

[redir]

You might be able to get the action you want with a refret.

[TKT]

I read somewhere much to my great surprise that ebony fretboards have more of a damping effect of a guitar's tone than rosewood. I don't know if that works for or against a classical. I have a couple with both.

I prefer ebony too on a classical, but I adore really figured rosewood as well on other guitars (and I love stripey ebony too, I don't need it to be a uniform black since it's usually dyed).

Just throwing it out there because that little factoid went "ding" in my brain.

[smwink]

Originally Posted by Skip Ellis

I've owned lots of nice classical guitars incl handmades by a couple of very prestigious builder and several Spanish made incl Pavan TP-30 and some others in the $1500-$2000 range. The latest was a Cordoba GK Studio (blanca with pickup). I've been thinking of getting a flamenco negra but am worried about the lack of sustain and the 'growly' tone. My problem is, I want flamenco action and classical tone and I've never been able to find a classical that I could lower the action enough. It seems to me that builders should use a little steeper neck angle and higher saddle to address this problem - leave the action high for those classical players who want it that way, but give others some adjustment leeway. Style-wise, I play a little bit of everything from Chet to classical to jazz chord melody and bossa nova. Any suggestions in the $1000-$1500 range?

I'm no luthier, but have you considered the possibility that some of the classical tone you're after is in part a result of the higher action?

I know that the distinction between classical and flamenco is relatively recent--Pepe Romero has been quoted as saying that a good guitar (for him) should be capable of both styles. So maybe more recent market trends have pushed a somewhat artificial distinction between classical and flamenco guitars, which includes a shallower neck angle and lower action for flamenco.

The upshot of this pondering is that you may find what you're looking for in a vintage classical where the distinction may not have been as relevant. I've come across several Kohno's from the late 60s, for example, with pretty low action and a lovely rich tone that I would characterize as very "classical."

[Skip Ellis]

Yes, I believe that good classical tone is the result of higher action and I think the builders do it this way on purpose. Players who are schooled and involved in the classical world (which I am not) are able to handle the higher action because that's all they've ever known and they're comfortable with it and the tone is probably better for their purpose. OTOH, one of my favorites, Jerry Reed, used a <$100 Baldwin classical with super low action and the lightest flamenco strings he could get - not the greatest classical tone (not even close) but it sure sounded good when he did it. I'm beginning to think that the Godin with full width nut is going to be my best bet although I really don't want an electric, I guess I could live with it. I'd really like to find one of Tom Prisloe's PAVAN Flamenca Negras on the used market as I can't afford the new one. For years I've thought that would be the perfect guitar for me.

[zhunter]

Here is a good place to look around:

https://www.guitarfromspain.com/en/

Big variety, with a full range of prices and wood selection. I haven't purchased from them but they have been around for a while. I beat their price on a nice Camps model but only by buying it in Spain. Can't speak for setups or anything but I corresponded with them and I think they are legit. A good way to scope options if nothing else.

I have a Navarro palo escrito (pretty sure they are not pau ferro) flamenco and it is a better guitar that can be expected. They list in the $1300 range but I am pretty sure either Memorial Music (MM) or MM on ebay will considerably beat this price.

I read your ebony requirement and, no, the Navarro fretboard is not ebony. It is cocobolo. I can say that the cocobolo on mine is dense and dark , but not black, and leaves nothing to be desired when up against ebony.

hunter