Arranging study group session #1

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

Well that is very impressive! It would seem piano would teach you so much about theory and intervals etc.

My brother plays the keys in my family. He does become the center of attention at gatherings!

In my experience, solo guitar is really considered more of a background thing that people don't really pay much attention to - until you sing. Then, you have an audience. The exception, of course, is a concert (i.e. house concert or whatever) in which people specifically come to hear you play.

The piano holds interest regardless of whether you sing or not. There is more going on and it is just made for playing solo.

So, for me, the guitar is my own thing unless I am playing in a band, and the piano is for social situations.

Tony

[Alex6strings]

This is the best thread AGF has ever had. Really great job.

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by Alex6strings

This is the best thread AGF has ever had. Really great job.

I'm really glad to hear you're enjoying it too Alex6! It's been a real pleasure for me to become involved with it and meet a bunch of people with the same passions, and interact with and learn from each other. And the topic is so vast and diverse, and individual creativity and expression play such large roles, that it seems it could go on together.

Actually what I hope Tony does now is come up with a new song for everyone to work on!

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

I'm really glad to hear you're enjoying it too Alex6! It's been a real pleasure for me to become involved with it and meet a bunch of people with the same passions, and interact with and learn from each other. And the topic is so vast and diverse, and individual creativity and expression play such large roles, that it seems it could go on together.

Actually what I hope Tony does now is come up with a new song for everyone to work on!

Well, I have been working on an arrangement of "By the Time I Get To Phoenix". Do you think that would be a good one for the next tune?

There will be a "next" tune, it is just a matter of what it is.

We should do that as another thread though so this one doesn't get too long.
We can call it "Arranging study group session #2. We can keep these things going as long as we all want to. We just increment the number for each successive thread. I named it that way so these would be easy to find, even with a bunch of them.

At first, I thought we would keep polishing our arrangements, but it seems to me that we did what we did and are ready to move on to the next one. I feel that way. Does anybody else?

Tony

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Well, I have been working on an arrangement of "By the Time I Get To Phoenix". Do you think that would be a good one for the next tune?

There will be a "next" tune, it is just a matter of what it is.

We should do that as another thread though so this one doesn't get too long.
We can call it "Arranging study group session #2. We can keep these things going as long as we all want to. We just increment the number for each successive thread. I named it that way so these would be easy to find, even with a bunch of them.

At first, I thought we would keep polishing our arrangements, but it seems to me that we did what we did and are ready to move on to the next one. I feel that way. Does anybody else?

Tony

As an interested bystander, I say start the next thread. That doesn't stop anyone from tagging onto this one, of course. But keep up the momentum (says this cheerleader, from the sidelines!)

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by tbeltrans

Well, I have been working on an arrangement of "By the Time I Get To Phoenix". Do you think that would be a good one for the next tune?

There will be a "next" tune, it is just a matter of what it is.

We should do that as another thread though so this one doesn't get too long.
We can call it "Arranging study group session #2. We can keep these things going as long as we all want to. We just increment the number for each successive thread. I named it that way so these would be easy to find, even with a bunch of them.

At first, I thought we would keep polishing our arrangements, but it seems to me that we did what we did and are ready to move on to the next one. I feel that way. Does anybody else?

Tony

I think another makes total sense. Maybe throw open the floor for nominations and then have a vote for the next one? Or you just pick Tony?

[Doug Young]

I'm so late on this that I see #2 has started! But I finally had a chance to finish my effort at #1.

On the topic of arranging, one thing I find is that it takes time for all the little things to jell when arranging, so I rarely have anything to share in just a few days. I worked out the basics of this pretty quick: I'm in DADGAD, in the key of C. I grabbed some sheet music and pretty much just followed the tune and chords. But there were little awkward spots, so I'd mess with it a few minutes each day, and would find some better fingerings, some chord substitutions and so on, one at a time.

That's actually my favorite part of the process. I've almost gotten to where I get excited by a part that just doesn't work. The parts that come easy are fine, but since they don't present a challenge, I'm probably not doing anything very interesting there. It's when you need to find a way to play something that isn't working at first that you're forced to get creative, and sometimes that's when the best parts of the arrangement happen. I'm sure this isn't "done", and if I keep playing it, it will keep evolving. Sometimes, I deliberately try things, other times I make a mistake that's interesting. Just a few days ago, I mistakenly played the final C chord with an F# in it, so I was ending on a Cmaj13#11. I went "oops", but then, "hmm, maybe I could do that", and ended up incorporating that in the arrangement.

Even while recording this, on about take 5, I made a mistake - actually I guess I had done 5 takes because I was making lots of mistakes :-) - that caught my ear enough that I decided to keep that idea, and even went and changed my written tab so I wouldn't forget it.

Writing stuff out as I go is also part of my usual process. Usually by the time I'm done the final version has drifted, and what I have written is more of an outline of what I'm playing in this recording, but it's close.

Anyway, here's my belated contribution.

[EllaMom]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm so late on this that I see #2 has started! But I finally had a chance to finish my effort at #1.

On the topic of arranging, one thing I find is that it takes time for all the little things to jell when arranging, so I rarely have anything to share in just a few days. I worked out the basics of this pretty quick: I'm in DADGAD, in the key of C. I grabbed some sheet music and pretty much just followed the tune and chords. But there were little awkward spots, so I'd mess with it a few minutes each day, and would find some better fingerings, some chord substitutions and so on, one at a time.

That's actually my favorite part of the process. I've almost gotten to where I get excited by a part that just doesn't work. The parts that come easy are fine, but since they don't present a challenge, I'm probably not doing anything very interesting there. It's when you need to find a way to play something that isn't working at first that you're forced to get creative, and sometimes that's when the best parts of the arrangement happen. I'm sure this isn't "done", and if I keep playing it, it will keep evolving. Sometimes, I deliberately try things, other times I make a mistake that's interesting. Just a few days ago, I mistakenly played the final C chord with an F# in it, so I was ending on a Cmaj13#11. I went "oops", but then, "hmm, maybe I could do that", and ended up incorporating that in the arrangement.

Even while recording this, on about take 5, I made a mistake - actually I guess I had done 5 takes because I was making lots of mistakes :-) - that caught my ear enough that I decided to keep that idea, and even went and changed my written tab so I wouldn't forget it.

Writing stuff out as I go is also part of my usual process. Usually by the time I'm done the final version has drifted, and what I have written is more of an outline of what I'm playing in this recording, but it's close.

Anyway, here's my belated contribution.

WoW Doug. You took a sweet tune (wasn't it sung by Jiminy Cricket in the Disney movie?!) and made it all grown up! Your version has a lushness to it without being smothering. I loved it! Thanks so much for sharing.

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm so late on this that I see #2 has started! But I finally had a chance to finish my effort at #1.

On the topic of arranging, one thing I find is that it takes time for all the little things to jell when arranging, so I rarely have anything to share in just a few days. I worked out the basics of this pretty quick: I'm in DADGAD, in the key of C. I grabbed some sheet music and pretty much just followed the tune and chords. But there were little awkward spots, so I'd mess with it a few minutes each day, and would find some better fingerings, some chord substitutions and so on, one at a time.

That's actually my favorite part of the process. I've almost gotten to where I get excited by a part that just doesn't work. The parts that come easy are fine, but since they don't present a challenge, I'm probably not doing anything very interesting there. It's when you need to find a way to play something that isn't working at first that you're forced to get creative, and sometimes that's when the best parts of the arrangement happen. I'm sure this isn't "done", and if I keep playing it, it will keep evolving. Sometimes, I deliberately try things, other times I make a mistake that's interesting. Just a few days ago, I mistakenly played the final C chord with an F# in it, so I was ending on a Cmaj13#11. I went "oops", but then, "hmm, maybe I could do that", and ended up incorporating that in the arrangement.

Even while recording this, on about take 5, I made a mistake - actually I guess I had done 5 takes because I was making lots of mistakes :-) - that caught my ear enough that I decided to keep that idea, and even went and changed my written tab so I wouldn't forget it.

Writing stuff out as I go is also part of my usual process. Usually by the time I'm done the final version has drifted, and what I have written is more of an outline of what I'm playing in this recording, but it's close.

Anyway, here's my belated contribution.

Wow! The first word that came to mind.....exquisite! Absolutely beautiful. You captured the essence of the acoustic guitar in that Doug. Beautiful tone and fantastic chords and harmonies.

It's interesting that you use DADGAD. It gave it a more open sound than the traditional jazz type arrangement you might hear. I'd like to use it but I know a difficulty I would have in switching out of standard tuning to DADGAD or another tuning is reading notation and finding the chords. Do you find you use alternate tunings often or most of the time and have relearned the fretboard pretty much in each tuning you use?

Anyway this song can't sound any better than this. Thanks for sharing that with us.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Grinning Boy

s.

It's interesting that you use DADGAD. It gave it a more open sound than the traditional jazz type arrangement you might hear. I'd like to use it but I know a difficulty I would have in switching out of standard tuning to DADGAD or another tuning is reading notation and finding the chords. Do you find you use alternate tunings often or most of the time and have relearned the fretboard pretty much in each tuning you use?.

hi GB, thanks, glad you liked the arrangement. I've played in standard tuning more years of my life than not, but the past decade or so, I'm usually in an alternate tuning. DADGAD's been sort of the base, along with a few others that I use often, and then an occasional odd tuning or two. I like alternate tunings because they bring a different flavor to things, and for me at least, seem to facilitate a more flowing sound that I usually get in standard. In part I think that's probably because it's possible to create a new tuning to achieve whatever you are trying to do - not because any given tuning is better, it's just that you can have more choices. (Sometimes standard is the best choice!)

I can read standard notation in DADGAD (slowly), but I don't usually do that because I'm usually creating my own music anyway. With this tune, I started by reading the regular sheet music I found, and just started with a guitar in DADGAD to see how it worked. Once I decided it would probably be ok, I entered the melody in my tab program (I use Sibelius, but anything will work) as standard notation, then copied it to the tab staff, which was in DADGAD, where I could adjust the fingerings - tho mostly I just experimented on the guitar.

Depending on the tuning, there is certainly some amount of "relearning" that happens, tho I find it not all that hard - I do recall when it seemed really daunting, but you get over it :-) It helps that I know my music theory - basic chord construction and so on, pretty well. So I can know what notes I need in a chord, and at worst, start hunting and pecking until I find them. DADGAD's a relatively easy tuning, because strings 3,4,5 are the same as standard, and 1,2,and 6 have the same relationship between them as standard, just down a step. You can often play standard chord shapes on just the 5,4,3 strings and let the other strings add interesting colors. But at the very least, you can sort of visualize the chord shapes as being related to standard shapes, using those 3 strings as a sort of core. Also, this helps with reading - the notes on the 3,4,5 strings are the same as standard, the other strings, you just have to mentally shift up 2 frets.

The fun thing is the way you can get different voicings, almost automatically. There's no new chords that don't already exist, of course, but in some cases, the inversions or voicings are just enough different than it brings a different character to things. We've heard all the standard tuning chord voicings all our lives, so it can be nice to hear something a tad different. Even when the voicing is identical, something about the guitar tuning seems to alter the texture, so overall, you just get a different effect that I often like.

As far as relearning all the notes and chords, I know standard best, DADGAD almost as well. Other tunings are far shakier, just because I use them less. But you get a few anchor points - learn the I, IV, V chords in whatever key, learn some interval shapes, and you can be up and running. The less I know a tuning, the more I tend to rely on my ear, which can also be a good thing - it forces you to go find the sound in your head rather than just rely on muscle memory and common chords you already know.

Hope this rambling isn't too far off the topic of arranging!

[tbeltrans]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

I'm so late on this that I see #2 has started! But I finally had a chance to finish my effort at #1.

On the topic of arranging, one thing I find is that it takes time for all the little things to jell when arranging, so I rarely have anything to share in just a few days. I worked out the basics of this pretty quick: I'm in DADGAD, in the key of C. I grabbed some sheet music and pretty much just followed the tune and chords. But there were little awkward spots, so I'd mess with it a few minutes each day, and would find some better fingerings, some chord substitutions and so on, one at a time.

That's actually my favorite part of the process. I've almost gotten to where I get excited by a part that just doesn't work. The parts that come easy are fine, but since they don't present a challenge, I'm probably not doing anything very interesting there. It's when you need to find a way to play something that isn't working at first that you're forced to get creative, and sometimes that's when the best parts of the arrangement happen. I'm sure this isn't "done", and if I keep playing it, it will keep evolving. Sometimes, I deliberately try things, other times I make a mistake that's interesting. Just a few days ago, I mistakenly played the final C chord with an F# in it, so I was ending on a Cmaj13#11. I went "oops", but then, "hmm, maybe I could do that", and ended up incorporating that in the arrangement.

Even while recording this, on about take 5, I made a mistake - actually I guess I had done 5 takes because I was making lots of mistakes :-) - that caught my ear enough that I decided to keep that idea, and even went and changed my written tab so I wouldn't forget it.

Writing stuff out as I go is also part of my usual process. Usually by the time I'm done the final version has drifted, and what I have written is more of an outline of what I'm playing in this recording, but it's close.

Anyway, here's my belated contribution.

Doug,

Thanks for posting this very fine arrangement! Also, many thanks for your insightful comments, both in the quoted post and your followup post. These will be very helpful to all of us.

Tony

[Grinning Boy]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

hi GB, thanks, glad you liked the arrangement. I've played in standard tuning more years of my life than not, but the past decade or so, I'm usually in an alternate tuning. DADGAD's been sort of the base, along with a few others that I use often, and then an occasional odd tuning or two. I like alternate tunings because they bring a different flavor to things, and for me at least, seem to facilitate a more flowing sound that I usually get in standard. In part I think that's probably because it's possible to create a new tuning to achieve whatever you are trying to do - not because any given tuning is better, it's just that you can have more choices. (Sometimes standard is the best choice!)

I can read standard notation in DADGAD (slowly), but I don't usually do that because I'm usually creating my own music anyway. With this tune, I started by reading the regular sheet music I found, and just started with a guitar in DADGAD to see how it worked. Once I decided it would probably be ok, I entered the melody in my tab program (I use Sibelius, but anything will work) as standard notation, then copied it to the tab staff, which was in DADGAD, where I could adjust the fingerings - tho mostly I just experimented on the guitar.

Depending on the tuning, there is certainly some amount of "relearning" that happens, tho I find it not all that hard - I do recall when it seemed really daunting, but you get over it :-) It helps that I know my music theory - basic chord construction and so on, pretty well. So I can know what notes I need in a chord, and at worst, start hunting and pecking until I find them. DADGAD's a relatively easy tuning, because strings 3,4,5 are the same as standard, and 1,2,and 6 have the same relationship between them as standard, just down a step. You can often play standard chord shapes on just the 5,4,3 strings and let the other strings add interesting colors. But at the very least, you can sort of visualize the chord shapes as being related to standard shapes, using those 3 strings as a sort of core. Also, this helps with reading - the notes on the 3,4,5 strings are the same as standard, the other strings, you just have to mentally shift up 2 frets.

The fun thing is the way you can get different voicings, almost automatically. There's no new chords that don't already exist, of course, but in some cases, the inversions or voicings are just enough different than it brings a different character to things. We've heard all the standard tuning chord voicings all our lives, so it can be nice to hear something a tad different. Even when the voicing is identical, something about the guitar tuning seems to alter the texture, so overall, you just get a different effect that I often like.

As far as relearning all the notes and chords, I know standard best, DADGAD almost as well. Other tunings are far shakier, just because I use them less. But you get a few anchor points - learn the I, IV, V chords in whatever key, learn some interval shapes, and you can be up and running. The less I know a tuning, the more I tend to rely on my ear, which can also be a good thing - it forces you to go find the sound in your head rather than just rely on muscle memory and common chords you already know.

Hope this rambling isn't too far off the topic of arranging!

Somehow I missed your follow up discussion here Doug. It never occurred to me to use tab software to create tab in an altered tuning from standard. It may be common knowledge that it can be done, but I didn't realize it until you pointed it out. Thank you very much for that tip!

I used to play arrangements by others in alternate tunings but felt I wasn't really learning or developing as a player as I was just playing the tab and not really comprehending what was being done. Your discussion here opened my eyes that I should go back and revisit these with a new perspective because you can obviously get very different and beautiful results with DADGAD or other tunings (I used to play a LOT of El McMeen's stuff in CGDGAD which are also lovely arrangements.

Anyway, again thanks for posting your arrangement and discussing it. It was very helpful. And if anyone hasn't listened to Doug's arrangement here with some good headphones, give yourself a real treat and do so!

[Alex6strings]

Last time I listened to one of Doug's arrangements I spent the next few hours in a YouTube coma watching everything of his I could.

Tony was spot on, that was a treat to listen to and a very clever arrangement.

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