Carbon Fiber shocker

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Nailpicker

......I always cringe when I read people talking about how "impervious" they are. ....One thing that has always been fairly widely know is that heat and UV degrade, not the graphite, but the resins that holds it together......

You make some interesting points, Nailpicker. CF is resistant to environmental conditions, but not indestructible. I don't leave my CF instruments in the car in extreme heat for prolonged periods. Many do, and I don't doubt their stories and lack of problems. For example, I would not panic about leaving a CF guitar in the trunk of a car for a hot afternoon, but not all summer in Arizona. I do know of one player in Hawaii who learned to be careful playing his Rainsong on the beach. That black guitar would become too hot to touch in the direct sun. Rainsong officially recommends against extreme exposure, BTW. From the warranty page:

"Warning
Although your RainSong guitar is considerably more stable and stronger than conventional wooden instruments, it does need to be cared for. Exposing the instrument to high temperature or to strong physical shocks will damage it. In the case of Projection Series instruments, sudden and extreme changes in temperature or humidity can damage the guitar."

In the airplane world, carbon fiber is used extensively. It is always painted (usually white except for military planes which are often painted gray, but are still painted with an opaque coating). This helps prevent heat buildup which can soften the resins, and limits UV damage too. I don't know if there are fatigue life / number of cycle limitations on CF airframes or parts, having never owned a composite airplane.

If I remember correctly from my past guitar work, traditional guitar glues will heat apart at around 150 degrees. Contemporary resins will heat apart at somewhere around 350 degrees. By heating apart I mean, for example, removing a fret board with a hot iron. Not sure if this furthers the conversation, just saying............

[laughingskunk]

That really is a shame. I have a Pre-Peavey OX and it is a wonderful guitar. I believe the ex owner of the company felt it was the most versatile of all the Cat's. If you can find one in good shape which should be most I can't praise them enough. Almost 900 seems interesting though. I think mine was 1200 new , course bought it a few years ago when the prices were amazing.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by semolinapilcher

In my local GC there's a used CA acoustic/electric for under $900.

I was totally psyched - I played a couple chords and the thing sounded really good.

But then I saw it had very high action, and then I saw why: the top was totally wavy with a severe belly around the bridge.

This was shocking and disheartening - I thought these guitars were built to be bulletproof. I wonder if it spent a Texas summer in a garage, or got strung with extra-heavy strings, or what???

If it's because they're underbuilt then uh oh.

I am not trying to troll here; just reporting.

Hi Mike,

FYI, the Composite Acoustics OX in your link is an early RAW model from 2009, right before the company closed. Probably one of the first OX models built. You can tell by the waxed back, and polished, non finished top. From the pictures it looks fine, as a bit of distortion was common on those early guitars. (You can also see this on early Cargos BTW) This should not affect playability, or structural integrity.

Note that I am not saying the guitar linked isn't damaged, without seeing it in person, or some detailed photos at least it's impossible to tell, but I doubt the buyer for Guitar Center would have bought it if it had issues. As far as I can see, all we have here is a top with normal distortion, and perhaps higher than desirable action.

BTW, the Composite Acoustics QC issues mentioned on these forums from time to time stem from early guitars, mostly dreadnoughts with less than ideal neck angles. Keep in mind that those early guitars were built using very different build techniques than what are used today. They actually had Ebony fretboards back then which could shrink and crack in dry weather.

I wanted to chime in because one member has already commented in another thread about a CF guitar with a warped top based on this thread as if it was fact, and I just hate to see rumors like that get started. I bought and sold thousands of CF guitars over the last decade or so, and I am aware of only two that develop a flaw, and both were very early pre-production models. I've put my CF guitars through things most of you never will, and I can confirm that they are more bullet proof than any acoustic needs to be.

[Earl49]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

..........I wanted to chime in because one member has already commented in another thread about a CF guitar with a warped top based on this thread as if it was fact, and I just hate to see rumors like that get started. I bought and sold thousands of CF guitars over the last decade or so, and I am aware of only two that develop a flaw, and both were very early pre-production models. I've put my CF guitars through things most of you never will, and I can confirm that they are more bullet proof than any acoustic needs to be.

Thanks, Ted. You have more direct experience with CF guitars than anyone except the manufacturers, and we appreciate you sharing to keep us on the right path.

[kramster]

When I ordered my early OXE from MacNichol ... back when I was just a kid of course.. I had to wait for the second one as he said the original one that was for me had some issues... I never beat it out of him what they were... (If I was a suspecter I might have suspected it had cat gut or even scarier... nylon strings on it by mistake... know what I'm sayin' Unc Evy?)

No, Mr. K;

Didn't happen. I tried to get a nylon Ox, but no such luck.

[semolinapilcher]

Originally Posted by Ted @ LA Guitar Sales

Hi Mike,

I wanted to chime in because one member has already commented in another thread about a CF guitar with a warped top based on this thread as if it was fact, and I just hate to see rumors like that get started. I bought and sold thousands of CF guitars over the last decade or so, and I am aware of only two that develop a flaw, and both were very early pre-production models. I've put my CF guitars through things most of you never will, and I can confirm that they are more bullet proof than any acoustic needs to be.

Thanks Ted, and others. I'd very much like to own a CF guitar at some point.

Interestingly the guitar in the link above is no longer for sale, so it'll be difficult to corroborate. I've seen a lot of guitars though.

[Ted @ LA Guitar Sales]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Thanks, Ted. You have more direct experience with CF guitars than anyone except the manufacturers, and we appreciate you sharing to keep us on the right path.

Thanks for that, Earl. Much appreciated.

Originally Posted by semolinapilcher

Thanks Ted, and others. I'd very much like to own a CF guitar at some point.

Interestingly the guitar in the link above is no longer for sale, so it'll be difficult to corroborate. I've seen a lot of guitars though.

No problem, Mike, and yes, looks like that OX sold. And you should definitely keep looking, CF guitars make a wonderful addition to any stable, large or small. Most folks buy their first one out of necessity, it's what I did, but then you get used to the durability and you become spoiled. I honestly can't recall the last time one of my wood guitars left the house.

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Thanks, Ted. You have more direct experience with CF guitars than anyone except the manufacturers, and we appreciate you sharing to keep us on the right path.

To be fair, Ted may have more experience than the manufacturers - they are experts on their products, but Ted gets to play most of the CF manufacturers' stuff he sells. OK, Kramster may be a close second.

[Earl49]

Jim, I almost wrote, "........and even some of the manufacturers........" in my post. And I forgot about K-man -- I was thinking of pro's like Ted, and should have included the talented civilians like Kramster too, who also could literally write the book on CF.

Unrelated sidebar: my boss* retires on JAN 12th and sometime in February we will be heading to Sun City, AZ to visit family. I hoep to arrange a min carbon fest at that time, since many carbonistas are in the Phoenix area.

*I am certainly the Captain of the ship. But first let me clear this decision with the Admiral over there....

[Captain Jim]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Jim, I almost wrote, "........and even some of the manufacturers........" in my post. And I forgot about K-man -- I was thinking of pro's like Ted, and should have included the talented civilians like Kramster too, who also could literally write the book on CF.

Unrelated sidebar: my boss* retires on JAN 12th and sometime in February we will be heading to Sun City, AZ to visit family. I hoep to arrange a min carbon fest at that time, since many carbonistas are in the Phoenix area.

*I am certainly the Captain of the ship. But first let me clear this decision with the Admiral over there....

I could be so in for this!

[kramster]

Originally Posted by Captain Jim

OK, Kramster may be a close second.

A distant close second...or something like that.



.

[mot]

Originally Posted by Earl49

In the airplane world, carbon fiber is used extensively. It is always painted (usually white except for military planes which are often painted gray, but are still painted with an opaque coating). This helps prevent heat buildup which can soften the resins, and limits UV damage too. I don't know if there are fatigue life / number of cycle limitations on CF airframes or parts, having never owned a composite airplane.

Composite AC are tough. I don't have any direct experience with catastrophic failure (during flight), but I have heard that it happens and have seen results of broken composite AC pieces on the ground (that wasn't flying related and that I may or may not have broken). Some composite parts of the planes I flew have high time replacements because when they go, then they go with less warning than a similar metal piece which will generally give a hint or two (think NDI or alarming gauge changes or warnings) before that catastrophic failure that you will remember for the rest of your (probably very short) life if it doesn't kill you immediately.