Questions for experienced reso owners/luthiers

[maxtheaxe]

A while back I bought one of those inexpensive Chinese made resonators...this one is a Rogue bell-brass body, round-neck, biscuit bridge. Its actually a pretty decent little guitar for the money but I have the feeling that I can get it to sound better with a new cone and some other tweaks. I've been a player for 40 years but this is my first foray into resonator and I'm a bit out of my depth here.

I'm looking for more sustain, more growl in the low end, more high-end sheen and just generally a wider freq response...what I'm getting presently sounds too midrangy...sort of low-res and lacking sustain or harmonic complexity...too much of a dull thud. The brands of cone I'm considering are the usual suspects...Beard, Quarterman, maybe even a National one.

Given my preferences what would be my best bet? Also, does anyone happen to know what the size of this cone is? Obviously I can measure it once I have it apart, but would be easier if I knew ahead of time if this is 9.5" or a larger one.

I'm also planning on trying the K&K Pure reso BB pickup that screws to the apex of the cone FWIW. I've had great results with their Pure Minis on my other acoustics, so this seems like a good bet.

Thanks!
Max

[Earl49]

At one time, I had one of the Martin ALT II aluminum topped resonators. It benefited by changing to a Quarterman cone, and was further helped by a good luthier setup. No doubt your Rogue will see similar improvements.
http://www.elderly.com/new_instrumen...s/ALTX2RES.htm

Inexpensive cones are usually sand cast, instead of being spun metal. It makes a tonal difference. Some of the Rogue and Regal reso's are really fine, but others are duds. That is why I would not consider buying one unseen / unplayed.

[blue]

If you aren't going to go for a national cone, why bother? It's 80 bucks. a beard is 60 and isn't engineered for strength. It's smooth sided. which means it's got to be thicker. Thicker is bad.

Skip lunch or a couple coffees for a few weeks. Get a National.

[blue]

Originally Posted by Earl49

Inexpensive cones are usually sand cast, instead of being spun metal.

First time I've heard this and frankly don't believe one word of it. The closest cheap alternative to spinning would be stamping. A worker in China can probably average from 30 to 45 cones a minute over a shift in a stamping process.

Sand casting? Probably impossible to cast aluminum that thin, and production numbers are limited by the process. Not to mention cleanup and polishing of every unit.

Nah... Makes no sense.

[blue]

As to the K&K, I have K&Ks on a pair of biscuits. A National wood and a Naitonal brass singlecone. The brass one has had the pickup since 2001 or so. Probably changes made in the pickup since then, but it looks, and mounts identically to the current model.

It's a good pickup. It doesn't sound as good as highlander. Just doesn't. But the highlander costs as much as your guitar probably did. I can recommend the K&K as a good pickup. Just not the best.

[maxtheaxe]

Thanks for the replies. One thing I noticed is that the cone on this Rogue has spiral ridges in it, and pictures of "hand-spun" cones I've seen never seem to have these. I'm led to associate these ridges with the lack of tone I perceive...making the cone too stiff...?

I agree about the Highlander...too expensive and anyway I've avoided these in the past for the same reason I've avoided Fishman...I don't like USTs.

Is there any relationship between the diameter of the cover plate to the diameter of the cone? Are they the same...will a measurement here give me the correct diameter of cone to order?

I was hoping to have everything I need in hand before I take this thing apart.

[mstuartev]

National "Hot Rod" cone ($80'?) turned a Gretsch Alligator into a darn good sounding cheapie after the piece of crap stock cone collapsed in shipping. You will need to set a new biscuit on it so buy a maple biscuit when u get the cone. Easy as pie to do.

[blue]

Originally Posted by maxtheaxe

Thanks for the replies. One thing I noticed is that the cone on this Rogue has spiral ridges in it, and pictures of "hand-spun" cones I've seen never seem to have these. I'm led to associate these ridges with the lack of tone I perceive...making the cone too stiff...?

The spiral ridges add strength. The question is, what metal was used in the cone, and how thin that metal is. So if a very thin cone is spun, and then those ridges are added, you have a very sensitive cone (good), and you've added strength without adding material (also good). If you are using an inferior alloy, spin or stamp it thick, and add the ridges, you are making an already stiff cone (not good), even stiffer (not gooder).

So if a cone doesn't have the ridges, it's bound to be thicker. Now with the beard, they are using good metal. It's just thicker. So they aren't awful. Just not as good as National.

The cone diameter is going to depend on the type of resonator. If you have a biscuit, you have a 9.5 inch.

This a cool guy I used to talk to on the Legend Guitar forum. That was 12 years ago. He's only gotten cooler, and better. He has a pretty good tutorial on what you will need to do.

http://www.littlebrotherblues.com/Ge...tup/index.html

[maxtheaxe]

Thanks again! I looked at some pics of National cones and sure enough, they have ridges. My reso is a biscuit, so I guess I can safely assume that I have a 9.5" cone....great! I can get everything together before I dive into this.

Thanks for the link to the tutorial...I'm at work right now and haven't looked at it yet, but this will be a huge help.

I had a suspicion that when they had these Rogue resos for $350.00, they probably wouldn't have them available for long, and I was right! I went into this thinking that I would likely have to do some mods to the guitar to make it real...I figure this will be a great learning experience and will yield a really fine resonator at a rockin' good price.

On to National...got to order my new cone...I will enjoy it! ^

[Cone Head]

Originally Posted by maxtheaxe

The brands of cone I'm considering are the usual suspects...Beard, Quarterman, maybe even a National one.

Maybe?
Beard and Quarterman might make fine Dobro cones, but their National-style offerings are pretty terrible.
National Reso-Phonic's current cones are in an entirely different league.
Not quite like an original 30s National cone, but definitely the next best thing as far as what's currently available.
I've heard that Fine Resophonic in France makes the most sonically accurate replica of a 30s cone, but good luck getting one without one of their guitars.

[Teleplucker]

Blue knows his stuff, my experience with the K&K pickup was not good but the one I had was designed to screw on the biscuit.
You might want to look at the National slimline pickups also. They work well, but it's hard to get a pickup that will translate all the tonal complexity that goes on in a good resonator guitar.

[blue]

Originally Posted by Teleplucker

Blue knows his stuff, my experience with the K&K pickup was not good but the one I had was designed to screw on the biscuit.
You might want to look at the National slimline pickups also. They work well, but it's hard to get a pickup that will translate all the tonal complexity that goes on in a good resonator guitar.

Actually, my K&Ks are the screw on type They both work decently. Even balance across the strings, pick up enough character that you know it isn't it flattop. About equal to hotplate in tone, but WAY lower output.

I like to think of the slimline and the hotplate (which I have) the same way Leo Kottke used the sunrise back in the day. It's always on the guitar if you need you, but it's never plan "A". They are both wonderful developments, and sound way better than they should.

[Dogfeathers]

Max,
I am late to this thread but I was in a similar situation some time ago and this is my experience, YMMV.
I bought a used Liberty square neck Reso that was a bit of a mongrel as far as reso's go as it had a all metal front, but wooden back and sides. I was unaware of any mods the previous owner did to it, but it was loaded with various buzzes, rattles and other annoying sounds. I had planned to upgrade the cone and spider but in the meantime I knew I could elminate some of the extraneous noises.
I took off the cover plate, spider and cone and the so so assembly quality was evident right from the git go. The guitar only appeared "assembled" and in a rather hap hazard way and never "set up".......and worst of all, the inside of the guitar was filled with metal chips, lots of sawdust and rather slip shod workmanship. I was expecting this so I was not surprised.....but I would have thought they could have blown out the loose crap before they put it together.

Anyway, I cleaned it out and cleaned up the poorly fitted cone, leveled the stock spider as it was not anywhere near flat, then tossed the chunk of wood they called a saddle / bridge and properly fitted a piece of hard maple, properly cut new string slots, re assembled the guitar with new strings, tensioned the spider to the cone and I had a new guitar..........as in a NEW Clinesmith.....well not exactly, but you get the idea.
Well I finally got around to ordering a new Quarterman cone and aftermarket spider for it expecting another huge leap in sound/ tone quality and after I re-set it up and re- fit the new parts.....the change was neglible at best.. So maybe the previous owner already replaced the cheapy components or the original parts were not that bad, who knows. But it was the time and effort to clean up the crappy workmanship and do a proper set up that made all the difference in the world.
By the way, I have set up my own instruments in the past, banjos and guitars, but I am no luthier. When I opened up the Reso, it was obvious what needed to be done so I did it and it worked.

[maxtheaxe]

Since I started this thread, I have the National cone in hand (which came with the new maple biscuit, btw). I still need to order the pickup...I'm all but certain that I'll end up going with the K&K, especially since I recently got the K&K XLR Mach2 preamp...figure I can tweak the sound enough to get what I hear in my head. That should work great for any live stuff I do with it...in the studio I can blend it with a nice tube condenser I have.

I also plan to replace the tuners with Grovers, and I'm coming to the realization that I'm going to have to drill a separate new hole for the jack, as I don't really want to mess with the tailpiece by drilling through that.

It always takes me forever to complete these projects...sometimes I go out to my studio to work on stuff like this and end up playing guitar for 3 hours instead...time well spent either way.

[eastcoast Chris]

For internal fitting try using the lower F hole for the Jack. If you decide to upgrade you can take the pickup out without leaving a hole in the body.