NGD: Kostal OM (and why I chose it over two Somogyis)

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by Cams

I've enjoyed reading this thread. It contains the most interesting and well-written documentation of thought processes I've ever seen and I can relate to so much of it.

I see Brett that you're down for a Kim Walker SJ in Adirondack/maple, is that right? I have one of those very guitars beside me as I write. My deliberation took all of five minutes on one of Kim's guitars, then came the 10-wait.

I won't relate my tale here; I posted a thread on the forum about the delight of going to pick up the guitar in February this year. Meeting Kim and hanging out at his workshop was the best thing I could've done as it has added so much to this guitar. But I do find myself thinking 'is it really the right guitar for me?' quite a lot for all sorts of reasons. I should write that up on here some time. I'm sure some contributors to this thread will be able to relate.

Thank you Brett for sharing your thoughts on here. It has been thorougly enjoyable to read.

Cam-

What a fantastic post to read, and very gratifying. I'd also very much enjoy reading a thread on your thoughts post-purchase... it, in some ways, would be the flipside of this thread: "What thoughts does someone with a great guitar have after purchase, including doubts, second guessing, frustration with something you didn't think of earlier, as well as moments of joy and excitement?"

I'd subscribe to that thread –instantly!–

Now, I've got to get back to this thread's narrative, or I'm never going to catch up to the present!

-Brett

[Cams]

Originally Posted by bdm0509

Cam-

What a fantastic post to read, and very gratifying. I'd also very much enjoy reading a thread on your thoughts post-purchase... it, in some ways, would be the flipside of this thread: "What thoughts does someone with a great guitar have after purchase, including doubts, second guessing, frustration with something you didn't think of earlier, as well as moments of joy and excitement?"

I'd subscribe to that thread –instantly!–

Now, I've got to get back to this thread's narrative, or I'm never going to catch up to the present!

-Brett

Okay, challenge accepted Brett. I shall take a leaf out of your thread and serialise the story, otherwise it'll feel like a monster and I'll never get round to it. I'll tease you by stating quite simply that it took me an hour to get into bed last night because I'd left the Walker lying on the duvet. It took me that long to hang it on its wall hanger!

Right, back to your thread.

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by bdm0509

On Honesty, the Long View, and Clients Versus Consumers

So the quote above the heading isn't exactly how I asked it to Jason, but it's close.

I was impressed with Jason. I wanted a Kostal. I really loved the OMC in my lap, although there were a few things I was nitpicking (and it still needed a setup to dial it in perfectly).

But I struggle with and suffer from "but there's this other one..." Heck, it should be clear that this whole thread is about me pursuing a means by which I could end up with a guitar without feeling that. The shipping fees I was racking up were all about avoiding the feeling of, "But what if I'd ordered or bought that OTHER guitar." I was making as informed and educated decision as I could, regardless of how I looked or seemed to those around me.

So I basically served up Jason a softball. Would the new OMC at CR Guitars be better for me? Would the OMC or JC or whatever from the Memphis batch be better? Keep in mind that the OMC at CR Guitars was newer and cost a fair bit more, despite it being paid for already by the dealer. And the purchase prices of the Memphis guitars were going straight to Jason.

So Jason could have told me about the changes he'd made to his new OMC that made them EVEN BETTER (tm) or how THIS SPECIAL GUITAR for Memphis was the one.

Again, though, Jason demonstrated integrity. He didn't try to up sell me. He didn't suggest I put down a deposit that would get him a check and another order. He said, in so many words, "Dude, don't be an idiot. You have a guitar you love, and I can dial it in for you. Keep it and play the h*** out of it!"

And with that? The deed was done.

I know I should be continuing the narrative, but I was re-reading this and realized that I had given the factual accounting but offered very little on my deeper reaction, as well as why I titled this section "On Honesty, the Long View, and Clients Versus Consumers."

(I'll try to be brief, I know the narrative is way behind!)

Basically, Jason has figured out that to reduce a client to a single instrument sale is to in effect lessen the client from being a client to instead being a consumer. A consumer buys something, and then takes that something and uses it/enjoys it/looks at it/whatever. Typically, consumers are related to a single interaction (even if that interaction is protracted over a time period longer than an hour or day).

The primary decision-making factor in dealing with a customer or consumer should be to maximize the effectiveness (and often, profit) in that single interaction. Since the interaction is a one-time instance, recurring business, long-term relationship, etc., really aren't in play, or at best minimized.

The term client, on the other hand, carries with it the implication of a longer-term, generally ongoing relationship. So decisions can–and should–be made with the long view in mind. Maximizing profit in a single interaction often, for example, minimizes profit over the lifetime of a relationship. Further, profit is often not as important as longevity, reputation, word-of-mouth, etc., all come into play in a more dramatic way.

I believe Jason has clients.

I think the most compelling evidence for this is that he has done everything described in this thread for me, when I was buying a Kostal OMC from a dealer, and further, a secondhand guitar from a dealer that didn't receive the guitar from Jason originally. He received –no financial gain– from my purchase of the Kostal OMC, and he didn't get a stinking penny out of the subsequent emails, phone calls, and in-person visit (which including a setup, pickup installation, etc., etc.).

However, lest I be overly naive, I don't mean to suppose that Jason is purely altruistic. While I think he does sincerely enjoy his work, he's also no dummy. He realizes that–at a minimum–I'm telling everyone I can about his work. I'm writing this thread, and if it were to trigger even one interested person ordering a guitar, that's fantastic!

(It may very well trigger me ordering another guitar.)

I don't know this, but I get the impression that at least 25% of Jason's clients (not consumers) are repeat orderers. That's a significant number, and a significant part of his business. He achieves this partly by building a glorious instrument (and mine with this setup is even more glorious-er than before!), but partly (maybe even moreso) by making the interaction so pleasant that it's worth doing again... that it's actually desirable to do again.

This is the long view.

This is, in my opinion, a significant contributing factor as to why Jason has the massive backlist he has. Not because his personality and client interaction overcomes anything lacking in his instrument; rather, because he is relatively unique in that his client interactions actually match the already crazy-high standard that his instrument sets.

OK, enough... back to the narrative. Another post coming soon!

-Brett

[Cams]

Originally Posted by bdm0509

I don't know this, but I get the impression that at least 25% of Jason's clients (not consumers) are repeat orderers.

Okay, another teaser then... I'm back on Kim's list.

[billgennaro]

Originally Posted by bdm0509

I don't know this, but I get the impression that at least 25% of Jason's clients (not consumers) are repeat orderers.

-Brett

This is an interesting thought and I wonder how close you are in your "guess-timation". I would think that multiple buyers of instruments in this stratosphere would choose multiple builders as well. With so many great luthiers available to us one would think that variety would win out when one is considering owning more than one build. However, I'm sure that there is also a percentage of folks who would want multiple instruments from the same builder (I know this to be true of factory made guitars like Taylor and Martin). It would be interesting to know just how large that percentage might be for someone like Jason Kostal, and how much it figures into each luthier's game plan. On the other hand, the old adage that there is no better advertising than a happy customer still holds true as well.

[steveh]

Originally Posted by billgennaro

This is an interesting thought and I wonder how close you are in your "guess-timation". I would think that multiple buyers of instruments in this stratosphere would choose multiple builders as well.

Interesting point. I own two Kostals but admit I ordered them at the same time rather than being a "repeat" offender. However, I have bought several guitars by the same builder in the past. Most often this arises simply because i get an instrument used, love it, and because of that commission another built specifically for me. For example I bought a used Philip Woodfield, loved it and as a result asked Philip to build me the "best guitar" he could. It took 3 years to arrive and I could not be happier with it (and I sold the first one).

I don't have too many guitars - I'm always after that one "grail" and then perhaps a couple of guitars from whoever that builder is, moving on the others as part of that process. Others take your view Bill, and enjoy multiple guitars from multiple different makers. I guess it takes all sorts.

I do know that Jason has several "repeat" clients but don't know the exact proportion, although I suspect Brett is close. The motives vary, inevitably. Some chap ordered one of each model that Jason makes - that's 4 guitars guys - just because he could. I'm in the wrong business...

Cheers,
Steve

[usb_chord]

[Jobe]

At least with television we get to watch commercials between the good stuff. I just found out that Bounty is the quicker picker upper. But I am not bored.

[JamesO]

Ah, we have commercials here, too. I think they say, "More to come," or "About this later." It's probably difficult to keep the energy of these long posts flowing, but I'm looking forward to the next one.

I found out this morning that a different maple Somogyi SJ is headed to my teacher in England, who also has a Kostal. Fun parallel to the thread.

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by JamesO

Ah, we have commercials here, too. I think they say, "More to come," or "About this later." It's probably difficult to keep the energy of these long posts flowing, but I'm looking forward to the next one.

I found out this morning that the maple Somogyi SJ is headed to my teacher in England, who also has a Kostal. Fun parallel to the thread.

More soon... I was traveling last Friday.

And man, I feel I should practically get a commission on that Somogyi :-)

[JamesO]

Ah! I was in error. It is a different SJ. My teacher has an existing relationship with the owner, so it is coincidental in terms of the thread here, but fun nevertheless!

[bdm0509]

Originally Posted by JamesO

Ah! I was in error. It is a different SJ. My teacher has an existing relationship with the owner, so it is coincidental in terms of the thread here, but fun nevertheless!

The mixup isn't surprising. As best I can tell, Somogyi has made a number of SJs, most in maple, most with that same rosette and overall aesthetic.

-Brett

[bdm0509]

All-

My deepest apologies. I've sort of taken a break from everything that even smells like responsibility these last 10 days or so, and am just now coming back to those things... including this thread! It's been a much needed deep breath after some insanity at work and otherwise... including this new Kostal. I'll get things back on course... now.

Enter: Somogyi the Second

So it's the next morning. I've discovered that while the Somogyi SJ has some things I prefer over the Kostal, and the Kostal has some things I prefer over it, my decision needle has swung rather wildly over into the Kostal side. I had a fantastic conversation with Jason, I've decided that yes, the relationship and support from the builder is a really big deal to me, and I just "feel" something for the Kostal that I'm letting matter. I'm not talking myself out of it.

And about that time, the doorbell rings, and the poor FedEx guy has hauled yet another large box to my doorstep. Alas, it's a tough life when you keep having guitar-shaped boxes make appearances.

It's the other Somogyi guitar, of course the Brazilian MD. And then something unexpected happens:

I'm not even that jazzed about opening it.

Crazy, right? But I'm not. I seriously consider just sending it right back. It sits unopened in my office for maybe an hour? And this helps me realize some things further:

1. I think I've already made my decision. Honestly, I'm in on the Kostal. I'm ready to move on. The decision feels made.
2. I've effectively moved the Kostal into the Somogyi category of quality and tone. In other words, I don't feel like, "Man, I have to play this MD because these Somogyis are in a class all their own!" They are in a class with the Kostals (or vice versa); and while there are differences, one is not so supremely better than the other in any way that it is otherworldly.
3. I'm genuinely more excited about a guitar I've begun to get to know than "that next one" unopened in front of me.

These are really important. As a "what about that OTHER guitar" guy (something I've mentioned a few times now), this is a good place to be.

The MD Power

Of course, I'm also not an idiot. After noting all these reactions, and also reminding myself that I'm paying for shipping on this MD no matter what, I open the box.

(Seriously, people. Can you imagine the comments I'd get if I hadn't?)

First, I will say that I personally liked the aesthetics of this MD –way– less than the SJ. While the Brazilian is gorgeous, it's much darker than it appears in pictures. But more than that, the rosette just was... weird for me. It just didn't feel very "Somogyi." Also, I confess to really not liking the tuner buttons (in general, not just on this Somogyi). Yes, these are totally superficial... but when you're paying this sort of money for a guitar, I believe you better like everything. You better LOVE everything.

Anyway, the Kostal is still by far the best looking guitar to me, and the Somogyi SJ is a much more elegant guitar in my opinion than the MD.

But what about the SOUND you say! Well, I'm glad you asked...

...it was powerful. Really powerful.

Mike Joyce kept telling me that he felt the Somogyi MDs were too much power for most players. They were just ... so MUCH of everything, and so MUCH low end. I was kind of expecting this woofy out-of-balance thing.

Not so at all. I didn't find the MD to be overwhelming at all. It was a cool guitar. Very responsive, although I found the SJ to be moreso... that SJ took such minimal effort to get it going. The MD wanted a little more. And it wasn't woofy at all... but it very much had a powerful, bold low end. It was indeed a powerful guitar, but not so much to be offputting. Not to me, at least, and certainly not after playing another Somogyi and a Kostal for the last few days.

Honestly, the MD was most surprising for something that was not at all what I expected...

...it had way more in common with the Kostal OM than the SJ. The bold, powerful, even aggressive low end of the Somogyi MD felt like the low end of the Kostal OM. It felt instantly familiar, it felt like a sound I'd been hearing for the last two days.

Different but "Correct"

Now here's where, for me, things get a little more difficult. I've been trying to–and I think I'm happy with how I've–explain(ed) how these guitars sound comparatively. But to my ears, the Mod D and OM were very much representative of their respective shapes. In other words, putting aside balance and bass and treble and all that, the Mod D just –felt– like a Mod D, and the OM just –felt– like an OM. I'm generally not of the opinion that a OO can sound like a Mod D, or an OM like an SJ. While you can go for characteristics of a different sized guitar, there's just something in the _feel_ that stays. That's vague, and I'm struggling to explain it better.

But the Mod D felt like a Mod D. The OM felt like an OM. However, the characteristics of these guitars were very very similar. I know Jason Kostal told me he really likes his OM because, for him, he got a lot of what he liked about the MD into his OM. I agree... without my OM feeling like a Mod D, it shared a lot with the MD: strength in the low register, more projection, a faster attack, just really throwing the sound out.

The SJ remained a more laid back guitar, and in my opinion, a more interesting guitar. If I'd bought a Somogyi, it would have –absolutely– been the SJ. That's not me saying the SJ was a better guitar, but it held a more unique place in the tonal world to my ear. I like that.

So the MD... it was great. It was fun.

And it just confirmed my decision.

There was nothing I heard in the MD that changed my mind. If anything, it made me think that a maple SJ would be an –awesome– complement to a Kostal OM... but it did not tempt me to get the Somogyi MD at all.

Next time... some summary thoughts as I pack up the two Somogyis and send them off.

[JamesO]

Glad you got a nice break, and glad you're back at it!

[Rwpierce]

Good evening all, i'm a new comer to this thread and have found it all quite fascinating and actually very timely. i have secured a spot with Jason for 2017 and I am considering an OMC in Wenge and German spruce. i have never been able to get my hands on a Kostal but have owned a Somogyi MD Fan Fret now for about two years. Absolutely a remarkable guitar and I am still blown away every time i pick it up.

Brett, your experience with your new Kostal OM has contributed to my considerable enthusiasm for whats to come with my build with Jason. I've never done a new build and 2 years seems like an eternity but i'm very blessed to be in this position.

Brett, i live in Flower Mound not to far from you and i would love to have the opportunity to meet you and play my first Kostal. i'm sure the experience would help me considerably on my build. I will bring the beer or the beverage of your choice should you extend an invitation.

Congratulations on your new guitar and thank you so much for sharing your experience and acquisition experience with us all.

Rob