How does Ralph Towner do it?

[nylonstring]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

The spot below the bridge is much louder than the usually-recommended 12th fret spot. It also sounds "woodier", which may be what he wants.

BTW, your video's still not showing up for me.

I'm definately going to try that mic placement the next time I mic my guitar. It would work great for videos--get's the mic out of the way of one's hands.

[Doug Young]

All I see is a blank square. You don't just remove http, you only include the you tube code, the part after the ?v=. For example one of mine is: aW-YzEgC30s

[nylonstring]

Ok, I just emailed Ralph Towner via the Oregonband.com website asking him about all this. I'm hoping he'll answer me and clear up all these issues.

[Doug Young]

Great idea, be sure to let us know what he says.

[nylonstring]

Will do. I'm just afraid it might take a while. My understanding is he lives in Europe (Italy, I believe) and only does one tour a year with Oregon, so not sure how long they will take to forward the email to him.

[Tomm Williams]

Originally Posted by nylonstring

I'm definately going to try that mic placement the next time I mic my guitar. It would work great for videos--get's the mic out of the way of one's hands.

While there is no doubt it would accomplish that, I can tell you without a doubt that you will find achieving acceptable GBF to be much more difficult than placing the mic in a more conventional position.

GBF can be influenced by a number of factors within system setup and component selection. One of the "Golden Rules" of mic placement for an individual sound source (as compared to say a choir) is the closer the mic, the greater level of GBF possible. Another benefit is the exclusion of bleed from near-by sound sources.

I believe I may be as interested in your final findings as you are as this (appears) to fly in the face of any advantageous use of a mic on a single sound source. Although I would be interested in finding out "why", I could not be convinced to follow suit in my own work.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Tomm Williams

While there is no doubt it would accomplish that, I can tell you without a doubt that you will find achieving acceptable GBF to be much more difficult than placing the mic in a more conventional position.

Tomm, not sure I'm following you. That spot below the bridge tends to produce more sound than other locations, so you get more "gain" from the guitar there that pretty much anywhere else - probably even more so with a good classical guitar. I've known this from recording, but never quite connected it to live sound until Eric Skye pointed it out. Eric, incidentally, is someone right here on the forum who often uses a mic while performing with other, louder instruments, so you might PM him and ask him to weigh in here.

I think it'd be great to hear Ralph's comments on his setup, but I don't really get why there's a mystery here. He's playing in good acoustic venues, performing arts centers and so on, undoubtedly with good sound people, good room acoustics, and professional players who know how to control their stage volume, and a quiet, attentive audience. I doubt he has any magic box that fixes feedback or eliminates bleed. If you play in the same situations as he does, it would likely work for you, too. If you are playing at a loud bar, it won't work. I doubt there's any more to it than that.

[Tomm Williams]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Tomm, not sure I'm following you. That spot below the bridge tends to produce more sound than other locations, so you get more "gain" from the guitar there that pretty much anywhere else - probably even more so with a good classical guitar. I've known this from recording, but never quite connected it to live sound until Eric Skye pointed it out. Eric, incidentally, is someone right here on the forum who often uses a mic while performing with other, louder instruments, so you might PM him and ask him to weigh in here.

I think it'd be great to hear Ralph's comments on his setup, but I don't really get why there's a mystery here. He's playing in good acoustic venues, performing arts centers and so on, undoubtedly with good sound people, good room acoustics, and professional players who know how to control their stage volume, and a quiet, attentive audience. I doubt he has any magic box that fixes feedback or eliminates bleed. If you play in the same situations as he does, it would likely work for you, too. If you are playing at a loud bar, it won't work. I doubt there's any more to it than that.

No Doug I don't think we're disagreeing here. I'm referring to the one photo with the mic a considerable distance from the guitar altogether. The other photos(s) with the mic located near the bridge makes perfect sense.

I do a lot of sound work for a couple of area symphonys so I'm pretty good at strategic placement of mics on acoustic instruments. Again, I'm not saying RT isn't doing this with success. I'm just pointing out that (assuming that photo demonstrates an accurate position) this seems to me to be a difficult approach to a fairly simple problem. I try to keep an open mind in these matters so if there is some unique advantage to this, put me at the top of the list of wanting to know how.

[Doug Young]

Originally Posted by Tomm Williams

No Doug I don't think we're disagreeing here. I'm referring to the one photo with the mic a considerable distance from the guitar altogether. The other photos(s) with the mic located near the bridge makes perfect sense.

Great, got it. One can only assume the situation (stage volume, mostly) allowed for a greater distance in those cases.

[Tomm Williams]

Originally Posted by Doug Young

Great, got it. One can only assume the situation (stage volume, mostly) allowed for a greater distance in those cases.

Yes, could well be. Still has me curious (stage volume aside) what RT finds so desirable in the end result of such a position. Since a greater distance essentially changes the "sound area" being picked up, is there something in the tonality of his instrument at a distance that is preferred to up close? It would be interesting to read about the entire system set up and any special application of processing or such to facilitate this.

Clearly it does something he's happy with.

[Doug Young]

On a guitar, a foot or two back is where you start picking up the whole sound of the guitar, not just a single spot. Same as with recording. So yes, you pick up a greater area, which is the entire guitar + "air". I'd guess in the one I posted where he's practically touching the guitar, he needed to do that to prevent feedback, but he'd get a very one-dimensional, very woody, midrangey sound. When he can back up, he'll get a more accurate sound that will sound more open, where the guitar has a chance to bloom. To me, back a foot or two seems like the preferred way for best sound, the only issue is if you can do it and get enough volume without feedback, and not pick up too much of the other instruments. But it's not like using a mic onstage with a band, and at reasonable distances is all that rare. Look at the standard bluegrass setup, for example, with a group of people playing around one mic in a semi-circle.

[gitman]

from what I remember after having participated in a workshop given by the whole group OREGON (years ago....) Ralph Towner has his fav. mic, a Beyer M180 Ribbon mic, always in front of the guitar(s) and only in recent years he has started incorporating a transducer (going stereo mic/pickup into an outboard preamp/eq/mixer module - that signal goes to the FOH) - which type/model he is currently using I don't know. what I DO know is that the tone he gets with his fingers is at times VERY loud and percussive and he prefers a woody, warm sound , especially when playing the 12string. check out his first solo recording for ECM from the 70's : it's a live concert-recording in Munich and on the backside of the LP cover you can see around 5 different Neumann mics positioned at various distances around him, quite impressive .... the sound is overwhelming. I've heard him in concert several times and while the volume has been relatively low (all acoustic stuff mostly with the occaisional synth) the SOUND has always been beautiful, warm, airy, engulfing - i babble.
I'm sure he'll answer any questions when he gets around to it - he is ALWAYS on the road, in Europe , the US, worldwide .....

[nylonstring]

Amazingly, Ralph Towner responded to my email already. I'm very pleased that he responded, but I honestly don't think a learned much from his reply. I don't know...what do you think? Here's the full text of his email:

The way I amplify the classical guitar with the group, with drums, etc. is to set up a small mackie mixer and run my microphone through that, along with a keyboard synthesizer, reverb. Then this is sent via 2 lines (stereo) to the house system. The mixer also provides a boost to the microphone, increasing the signal to noise ratio. I also send 2 outs from the same mixer to a small amp on stage that is connected to two stereo speakers placed to the side. Only my instruments go through that system, avoiding mixing the other musicians in it. I then use a house monitor speaker with the bass and drums running through them. The horn is right next to me, and I hear him quite well acoustically. Playing duo or solo, I will sometimes just run the mic directly to the house, if the system is good. I use little or no monitors, depending on the hall. If the house system isn’t so good, or the technician is a problem, I use the small mixer again, with the mic plugged into it, and, if I’ve decided to bring the 12 string guitar, I plug a pickup into a second channel and mix the output of that with the mic channel. The mic placement is slightly away from the sound hole, nearer the bridge. I don’t place the mic too close, as it sounds better not picking up the nastier sounds you get from a plucked acoustic guitar. This requires you to have a strong tone that projects, and a decent guitar. The latter two requirements are more important than the sound system!!
As you mentioned, photos can be misleading. The mic position depends on your sound and your instrument, as I mentioned.

I hope this helps you to find a solution. I don’t like pickups on a classical guitar, as they alter the detailed dynamics and sustain that you spend your lifetime developing acoustically. The 12-string is another matter, as it doesn’t have such an obvious standard of sound that the classical guitar maintains, since it was generally used as a folk instrument. Playing it with classical technique is tough on the fingernails. Also it isn’t as loud as a classical guitar. So a little help with a pickup seems OK with me in this case.

[Doug Young]

Interesting. I think one piece of useful info is that he has a fairly sophisticated setup with multiple monitors and he can control what is in those monitors separately as well as what's in the mains.

That's a nice thing to be able to do - for example, one way to use mics on stage is to be able to run the mics to mains, but use a pickup that's only in the monitors. You hear crappy sound, but at least you can hear yourself. The audience hears good sound, with no mics back in the monitors to feedback. He's not doing this, but it's one way to handle mics on stage.

The fact that he didn't even mention feedback or bleed from other instruments seems to indicate it's simply not a problem, which is what I'd expect in the types of venues, volume levels, etc, where he plays. Notice the comment that he often doesn't even use monitors, at least when playing solo or duo. So they keep stage levels low enough that he doesn't even need monitors to hear his guitar, the direct sound + indirect sound from the mains is enough.