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Old 06-17-2016, 09:56 AM
JackH JackH is offline
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Default Buying a new "compensated" saddle on-line

I recently got a new bone saddle for my Ibanez AW from guitarsaddles.com. I mailed him a saddle from my guitar and he copied the top on a bone saddle. It sounds great. I test intonation using a Snark tuner on the guitar head. Each string is in tune open and also on the 12th fret. That's the only way I know to check intonation other than just playing and not hearing any out of tune sound on the higher frets. I've read lots of praise of TUSQ saddles and there is one on Musician Friends site for $12. The top of the saddle is cut differently than what I have now. The measurements look good and all I would need to do is sand the bottom to get the action like I want it. Does anyone have an opinion on this needing filing for good intonation if used on my guitar?

Here's the link
http://www.musiciansfriend.com/nuts-...1-8?src=3XBACR

On my existing saddle the strings hit the top of it in a straight line except for the 1st and 2nd strings. Looking at the picture of the TUSQ saddle the portion under the 5th string looks like the contact point is farther toward the front of the saddle. Would this make much difference? Or is it one of those things I just need to try to see? I appreciate any help.

Also, does anyone have an opinion of TUSQ compared to bone? I've read good things about both as well as it seems like a lot of it is personal preference.

Jack
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Old 06-17-2016, 10:28 AM
MC5C MC5C is offline
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The correct way to check intonation is the way you are doing it - 12th fretted note in tune with the open note. Playing different notes and chords up the neck can be a little misleading since the guitar is fretted in equal temperament and so can naturally be a little out of tune to itself on certain intervals. The only interval on the guitar that is perfectly in tune - if intonation is correct - is the octave, hence the 12th fret deal.

On most instruments you can get close with the angled saddle slot and the extra ramp back on 1 and 2. Do you need a different saddle, is buying online likely to get you want you need? Not likely to both questions. The correct way to set intonation is on each string by adjusting (filing ramps, basically) the saddle that you have in hand. If you take your guitar and it seems to be good to you, in tune at the 12th fret on all strings, stop there and declare it good. If you think one or two strings are out, adjust the saddle you have. If everything is out, then the saddle is flat in the wrong place and you need a luthier.
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Old 06-17-2016, 11:02 AM
JackH JackH is offline
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Originally Posted by MC5C View Post
The correct way to check intonation is the way you are doing it - 12th fretted note in tune with the open note. Playing different notes and chords up the neck can be a little misleading since the guitar is fretted in equal temperament and so can naturally be a little out of tune to itself on certain intervals. The only interval on the guitar that is perfectly in tune - if intonation is correct - is the octave, hence the 12th fret deal.

On most instruments you can get close with the angled saddle slot and the extra ramp back on 1 and 2. Do you need a different saddle, is buying online likely to get you want you need? Not likely to both questions. The correct way to set intonation is on each string by adjusting (filing ramps, basically) the saddle that you have in hand. If you take your guitar and it seems to be good to you, in tune at the 12th fret on all strings, stop there and declare it good. If you think one or two strings are out, adjust the saddle you have. If everything is out, then the saddle is flat in the wrong place and you need a luthier.
Right now I'm 100% happy with my guitar. In fact after a little work I've done sanding the original saddle to lower the action, getting an extra saddle from Ibanez, sanding it to adjust action, then getting the bone saddle the guitar is like a completely different guitar than when I bought it in 2003. It plays easier and sounds much better. I am just curious about the difference (if any) in sound I'd get from a TUSQ saddle. Maybe I should leave well enough alone. From what I've read any difference in sound may vary from guitar to guitar, even if the guitars were the same model. Then there's personal preference.
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Old 06-17-2016, 01:54 PM
JackH JackH is offline
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The first tusq saddle I was looking at was cut (compensated) completely different than the one in my guitar. I did another search and found one that is compansated for Taylor guitars. It looks a lot like the one I have now. Both were $11.99 with free shipping. Then I searched ebay for this saddle. I found the same one for $8.95 so I ordered it. I'm eager to see how it works in my guitar. If it doesn't do well, I'm only out $9.

Since I'm going to replace the saddle I'm going to take the opportunity to re-read basic setup steps and check the relief in the neck to see if I can't get the guitar playing even better than it does now.

The only acoustic setup steps I'm comfortable with doing is swapping saddles and adjusting a truss rod. Since swapping saddles is easy as long as I don't need to file the saddle to adjust intonation, I may get a non-compensated saddle blank someday and try my hand at filing it.

I'll post the results of my ebay saddle in case anyone is interested. But from what I've read changing a saddle in a guitar can have different results simply based on the characteristics of the guitar. So far the biggest improvement has been sanding the original saddle so it was flat on the bottom. Once that was done there was a huge difference in volume and volume of individual strings. Then going from that Ibanez factory saddle to bone did make it sound a little fuller but the change was miniscule compared to just getting the first saddle flat. This leads me to believe that even if you change from one material to another the saddle first needs to be shaped right. Flat bottom and a fairly snug fit in the bridge slot. I'm living and learning. I just hope I don't do any harm.

Jack
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  #5  
Old 06-17-2016, 02:04 PM
Rodger Knox Rodger Knox is offline
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Originally Posted by JackH View Post
So far the biggest improvement has been sanding the original saddle so it was flat on the bottom. Once that was done there was a huge difference in volume and volume of individual strings.
Jack
I often wonder how many times an improvement in tone is attributed to a different saddle material when the real cause is a better fitting saddle.
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  #6  
Old 06-17-2016, 02:24 PM
JackH JackH is offline
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Originally Posted by Rodger Knox View Post
I often wonder how many times an improvement in tone is attributed to a different saddle material when the real cause is a better fitting saddle.
Good point. I'm at a similar point right now. I should have the new tusq saddle in a few days. I've been using Elixer strings since November, last year. I decided to try some Martin strings. I got three sets. One set of Lifespan strings and two others that cost much less. I've been looking forward to seeing what the differences are. But now I have a new saddle on the way. If I swap saddles and put on a different type string than what I'm used to I won't know which change made any differences. So I'm going to change the strings to one of the Martin sets before swapping saddles I think. I plan to put the Martin strings on in order of cost. The sets are

Martin SP 80/20 Brnz 10-47 XL $4.89
Martin SP Ph Brnz 10-47 XLT $6.49
Martin Lifespan SP Phos 10-47 XL $11.99

Once I decide how I feel about these strings I'll swap the saddle. My other option is to swap the saddle when I get it along with a new set of Elixir's. I have 2 or 3 sets of those. After thinking about it I think I'll swap the saddle first and keep using the Elixir's. Decisions,,, decisions.

Jack
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Old 06-17-2016, 04:37 PM
Ned Milburn Ned Milburn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MC5C View Post
The correct way to check intonation is the way you are doing it - 12th fretted note in tune with the open note. Playing different notes and chords up the neck can be a little misleading since the guitar is fretted in equal temperament and so can naturally be a little out of tune to itself on certain intervals. The only interval on the guitar that is perfectly in tune - if intonation is correct - is the octave, hence the 12th fret deal.

On most instruments you can get close with the angled saddle slot and the extra ramp back on 1 and 2. Do you need a different saddle, is buying online likely to get you want you need? Not likely to both questions. The correct way to set intonation is on each string by adjusting (filing ramps, basically) the saddle that you have in hand. If you take your guitar and it seems to be good to you, in tune at the 12th fret on all strings, stop there and declare it good. If you think one or two strings are out, adjust the saddle you have. If everything is out, then the saddle is flat in the wrong place and you need a luthier.
Not sure why you'd suggest to ramp the 1st string backwards. The standard saddle peak position is from E to B (1st 2nd) front to back, then 3rd string to 6th string front to back peak angle.
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  #8  
Old 06-25-2016, 03:15 PM
JackH JackH is offline
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String change (Elixir to Martin) and saddle change (bone to tusq) update.

First I put this set of Martin strings on the guitar (Martin SP 80/20 Brnz 10-47 XL $4.89). They sound fine and the tone is lasting fine. The only thing I don't care for is they make the sliding sound when sliding around on the wound strings. I'm compensating for that as best I can but I prefer for the strings to not make the sound AT ALL. This enables me to keep fingers on strings as I move up/down the neck to maintain proper position. I would say that even though the sound is there it's not as loud as strings I used years ago. And for under $5 a set I could live with the sound just fine if/when money gets tight. Looking forward to trying the Lifespan strings. It does seem like the Martin guitar company makes good strings. Who knew???

After 4 or 5 days with these strings I put the new tusq saddle in and restrung it with the same strings. MAN!!! You talk about a different sound!!! The high strings are significantly more crisp. More trebelly or something. It really sounds good. But to be fair the bone saddle was plenty good as well. So this is one of the times that there's a lot of difference in sound but it would be a personal thing as to if someone likes it more or not. For me I don't like the basser sound I get with thick picks or heavier strings. Anyway, in my guitar I get a crisper sound from the tusq saddle. The only negative thing is the intonation on the 4th, 5th and 6th strings is off just a hair. On these strings the open string is in tune but at the 12th fret the tuner shows each string as sharp by bouncing to the next LED up from the green bar indicating in tune. I don't notice any problem when playing. Most of my playing is under the 7th or 8th frets. The peak contact points of the 4 bass strings is right along the front of the saddle. The peak of the bone saddle under the 3rd string is at the front of the saddle and the peak under the 6th string is at the back of the saddle. The 4th and 5th string peak point seems to be along a straight line from the 3rd to the 6th string. I may try filing the tusq saddle moving the top back a tiny bit. But, if the saddle is sloped from the front to the back of the saddle I'll also be lowering the string height a tiny bit. I have sanded the saddle about as low as it can go I think. I have some shims I can put on the bottom of the saddle and re-sand it to set the action if I need to.

QUESTION: Is it correct that if the pitch is sharp at the 12th fret the top of the saddle needs to be farther away from the 12th fret? That seems right to me. More distance equals lower pitch. I appreciate any help I can get.

Jack
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  #9  
Old 06-25-2016, 03:49 PM
murrmac123 murrmac123 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JackH View Post
QUESTION: Is it correct that if the pitch is sharp at the 12th fret the top of the saddle needs to be farther away from the 12th fret? That seems right to me. More distance equals lower pitch. I appreciate any help I can get.
Jack
Yes, you are correct.

FWIW my experience is that it is more satisfactory to intonate the instrument by capoing at the second fret and comparing the harmonic and fretted note at the 14th fret, rather than using the open string and the 12th fret.
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  #10  
Old 06-25-2016, 04:32 PM
JackH JackH is offline
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Originally Posted by murrmac123 View Post
Yes, you are correct.

FWIW my experience is that it is more satisfactory to intonate the instrument by capoing at the second fret and comparing the harmonic and fretted note at the 14th fret, rather than using the open string and the 12th fret.
When I do that I get a significantly higher note at the 14th fret on string 6. With the string open and then fretting at the 12th fret the first bar on the tuner blinks. I never stays lit. This seems to me to indicate a very slight adjustment is needed. Using the 2nd and 14th frets the difference is much more significant. That would mean I'd need to file more. I'm guessing the saddle is 1/16th" lower at the back of the saddle. Maybe a tiny bit more. Since I have already sanded the bottom for action setting I think the action may be too low if I move the top of the saddle back. If that happens I'd either need another saddle to start over or gluing shims to the bottom of the one I have now and re-sanding. Right now when looking at the end of the saddle at the 6th string end there is a significant slope down from the string contact point which is at the front of the saddle. Does this make sense?

Here is what my tuner shows when capo is on second fret and checking 14th fret.
String----# of bars sharp
6---------1 sharp bar steady and 2nd bar blinks
5---------1 sharp bar steady
4---------1 sharp bar steady and in tune light blinks
3---------good
2---------good
1---------good

I have never filed a saddle for intonation before. Seems to me filing in a straight line from the front of the saddle where the 3rd string hits to the back of the saddle (like the bone saddle is now) is what I need.

Jack
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  #11  
Old 06-26-2016, 02:22 AM
FluffyDog6 FluffyDog6 is offline
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Though crude, I have never forgotten the intonation adage:

"Move anything sharp away from your nuts."
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  #12  
Old 06-26-2016, 10:46 AM
JackH JackH is offline
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Originally Posted by FluffyDog6 View Post
Though crude, I have never forgotten the intonation adage:

"Move anything sharp away from your nuts."
Accurate, easy to remember and useful even outside of guitar situations. Thanks.

Jack
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  #13  
Old 06-27-2016, 05:36 PM
JackH JackH is offline
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This new tusq saddle sounds good to me. But, I know the intonation isn't perfect. But, I don't hear any problem when I play. Most of my playing is on the first 7-8 frets. So I have some options.

1. Shut up and play and don't worry about intonation until I can hear a problem when I play. I don't care much for this option because even if I can't hear anything wrong when I play, knowing the intonation is off is a downer. Plus if I ever play the higher frets there may be an obvious problem then.

2. Put the bone saddle back in because the intonation is perfect or at least almost perfect. Forgetting about intonation, this option also has the benefit of giving be a better idea of the difference in sound from the bone and tusq saddles.

The following options involve me filing a saddle to set the intonation myself. I have never done this before. I think I understand the concept and it seems pretty straight forward. Having said that it seems like it would be easy to file a little too much if I get in a hurry. Even so, right now I have two perfect Ibanez stock saddles and on perfect bone saddle to use.

3. One option I can take is to file the tusq saddle I have now to correct intonation. If that lowers the action on the lower (pitch) strings I could use shims to raise it back up and re-sand. When I bought the bone saddle I also got a few shims. I believe I need to glue them to the bottom of the saddle and re-sand for action. If different materials (bone vs saddle) create different sounds, will using shims change the sound? The shims are ebony. Probably one of those things I won't know until I do it.

4. Get another identical saddle and file it first to what I think would be good intonation. I would do this by trying to shape the top just like the bone saddle. Then sand the bottom to set the action. Actually, this sounds like the best option if I want to keep a tusq saddle. I'm also thinking trying to get the other tusq saddle perfect (or close) using shims if I need to will teach me more about the whole process. What I mean is my existing tusq saddle would possibly be for practice. If I need another new saddle maybe I would have learned a bit and not mess that one up.

I'm going to do something with this but I'm in no real hurry. I'm going to read or re-read a few things on internet sites or look at youtube videos before I get started. If anyone has any tips or suggestions I'd be very grateful for any help.

As far as tools go I have a Dremel as well as clamps, vises or anything needed to hold the Dremel or the saddle still. I'm pretty sure I need to stay away from any tool using a motor when setting the intonation. I used my bench sander to remove a lot of material from the bottom of the saddle. But the last bit of sanding I used a diamond sharpening stone. I also have sandpaper from 60 grit to 2000 grit. I have needle files. Nothing like you might need for filing string slots in a nut but plenty small enough for filing a saddle. Any help is appreciated.

Jack
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