New journey nylon string guitar!

[Tom2]

Adjusting string spacing in 0.5mm increments changes individual string spacing by 0.1mm, which is 1/254". After making a few custom nuts, I now know that 1/254" can definitely be felt, and preferences at this level are formed.

And so, in terms of what Rob will be making as a nylon strung guitar. It will not be a classical guitar. A classical guitar probably has the smallest and most resistant market. When Sir brought us the new CF classical being developed in Madrid I brought the news to the classical site on this forum and the response was generally negative--those classical players are really rooted to wood.

Rainsong comes close to a classical guitar with the Parlor, but it is a hybrid geared to steel string players with its narrow nut width, high tension strings, and electronics. The Emerald and Blackbird nylon string guitars are all clearly hybrids, guitars designed to appeal to a wide variety of players.

I suspect Rob will be making a hybrid. The big question, in my mind, is nut width. Rainsong has gone with a 1 6/8" width which, no doubt, appeals to steel string players. The Blackbird Rider nylon runs with the traditional 2" nut width. I've always felt the ideal compromise was 1 7/8"; that's narrow enough for steel stringers' adaptation and wide enough for classical players. The 1 7/8" also better accommodates strings of various tensions.

Decisions, decisions. I'll probably roll with whatever Rob decides, but my preference is clear.

[robailey]

Hey guys, just wanted to drop a note and say thanks for all the helpful info. We're listening and will respond with a great guitar when the time comes.

In the meantime, Rob, how are things going? Is your surprise getting close and have you made any decisions regarding the nylon?

[robailey]

Hey Evan,

We haven't decided on the specs for the classical yet - but I really appreciate all the details and the logic for preferring certain specs. The new product launch is going on time thus far. Prototypes will be ready in 2 months, and we'll likely launch at NAMM WITH inventory to deliver to stores - which is a rare thing in this industry.

Is the new product launch the nylon string or your surprise?

[Tom2]

My interpretation of this thread is that the nylon guitar is still in design phase, and won't go into production for many months. The pace of my contribution to this thread is based on this interpretation. If this was a paid gig, and there were time constraints, I could easily compress my research into a few weeks, but right now I'm just doing this for fun.

I had originally intended to do this research anyway, in preparation for ordering a custom nylon from Emerald. This thread provides me with the opportunity to share the fruit of my labor in an expanded way, for which I'm truly grateful (thanks Evan!).

I'm a one-guitar-guy. My main axe is an original Gibson L6-S electric, that I played almost daily from 1985 - 2012. In 2012 I completed an intensely electric project, and felt the need to go unplugged for a while. I find the tension of steel string acoustic guitars to be painful, which is why I play electric, so I went for a classical. The sound and feel of nylon is wonderful, but the classical neck profile is crazy awkward for anyone who isn't willing to "assume the position," so here I am researching crossovers.

When I find the right nylon instrument for me, I intend to use it as my one guitar for many years, so I'm perfectly happy conducting my research down to sub-millimeter accuracy.

My most recent performance gigs have been multi-day outdoor festivals with eco-friendly audiences, so a guitar that won't self destruct in direct sunlight, and isn't made from endangered trees, is perfect. This is why I'm focusing on cf.

After playing one guitar, and only one guitar, for many years, I have discovered how subtle the relationship between brain, nervous system, muscles, posture, and instrument can be. This is why I adjust only one parameter at a time, and give myself many weeks to use it before making the next adjustment. I'll share some discoveries I've made specifically about nylon in a future post, because this one just reached my limit for length.

[Acousticado]

Originally Posted by Tom2

My interpretation of this thread is that the nylon guitar is still in design phase, and won't go into production for many months. The pace of my contribution to this thread is based on this interpretation. If this was a paid gig, and there were time constraints, I could easily compress my research into a few weeks, but right now I'm just doing this for fun.

I had originally intended to do this research anyway, in preparation for ordering a custom nylon from Emerald. This thread provides me with the opportunity to share the fruit of my labor in an expanded way, for which I'm truly grateful (thanks Evan!).

I'm a one-guitar-guy. My main axe is an original Gibson L6-S electric, that I played almost daily from 1985 - 2012. In 2012 I completed an intensely electric project, and felt the need to go unplugged for a while. I find the tension of steel string acoustic guitars to be painful, which is why I play electric, so I went for a classical. The sound and feel of nylon is wonderful, but the classical neck profile is crazy awkward for anyone who isn't willing to "assume the position," so here I am researching crossovers.

When I find the right nylon instrument for me, I intend to use it as my one guitar for many years, so I'm perfectly happy conducting my research down to sub-millimeter accuracy.

My most recent performance gigs have been multi-day outdoor festivals with eco-friendly audiences, so a guitar that won't self destruct in direct sunlight, and isn't made from endangered trees, is perfect. This is why I'm focusing on cf.

After playing one guitar, and only one guitar, for many years, I have discovered how subtle the relationship between brain, nervous system, muscles, posture, and instrument can be. This is why I adjust only one parameter at a time, and give myself many weeks to use it before making the next adjustment. I'll share some discoveries I've made specifically about nylon in a future post, because this one just reached my limit for length.

As I'm sure you know, Emerald is the builder with the most flexibility to dial-in the specs you want. Seems that a custom X10 or X20 could be right up your alley.

Tom1

[Tom2]

A custom Emerald X10 has always been my plan B. I have absolutely no doubt about their ability to deliver. However, I would prefer to find, or help design, a production model composite crossover guitar because it would be available to everyone.

When we ask a question, and it is truly answered, we stop asking. When we search for something, and find it, we stop searching. The extent of Evan's and my search for the perfect composite crossover is evidence that it does not yet exist. In fact, in the classical section of this forum, crossovers are typically considered to be the worst of both worlds. Having tried a few, I understand the sentiment.

It's a chicken and egg issue, what comes first. Crossovers are not popular because their design is not yet optimized. They are not yet optimized because high end players don't use them. High end players don't use them because there are no optimized models available to purchase. Chicken and egg.

A truly optimized crossover won't just help high end players. It will also be the easiest guitar to play, perfect for beginners and players who value comfort. Also, the harmonic structure of nylon makes it a perfect solo instrument. Consider how many albums exist exclusively for solo classical guitar, and compare that to the number of albums that exist exclusively for solo anything, other than piano.

Occasionally, life produces an alignment that is beyond my direct control. When I realize that I am in such an alignment, I just contribute whatever I can. This thread is an example. After discovering that a custom Emerald was my only option, I bought a wooden crossover and tools for making custom nuts and saddles, in order to determine the exact dimensions that I would request from Emerald. The day after my tools arrived, Rob posted to this thread requesting input on crossover neck design. In this world, synchronicity is a powerful form of guidance.

Tom 2;

I am really enjoying your search for the ideal contemporary nylon string guitar. You are much more exact than I am and I suspect your ultimate guitar will be much different than mine. As you note, I do not think my custom guitars have reached full potential and so I look forward to seeing/hearing what you come up with.

I also think there is a confounding element in your search. While searching for a guitar that will be satisfactory for large numbers of people, you are also searching for your particular ideal. You are engaged in the classic disparity between the one and the many. I suppose that the one and the many sometimes come into alignment but that may be rare.

[Tom2]

Ah, philosophy.

When I stopped playing electric in 2013, and began my migration to nylon acoustic, I also stepped away from music as my primary activity and started writing. My topic has been the relationship between individuality, uniqueness, social conformity, and creative self expression.

We often see uniqueness as something that sets us apart from each other, when in fact it is a trait that we all share in common. Also, we can only give what we have, and I can only help someone else identify that which supports their own uniqueness if I first learn how to identify that which supports my own. Not because my perfect guitar would also be someone else's, but because learning how to support uniqueness is, of itself, a skill that can be transferred to others. By putting in the effort to discover what works perfectly for me, I am earning a seat at the cosmic table.

My educated guess is that your perfect crossover and mine would be so close to identical, a casual observer would not be able to tell the difference. Historically, all fine instruments go through a refinement phase that makes them attractive to more people. This hasn't happened yet for crossovers because they are essentially modified classicals, and classicals are not modified by definition. Through my work, I have discovered that an adjustment of a single parameter by as little as 0.1mm can spell the difference between,"Wow, where can I buy one of these," and "No thanks, I'll stick with what I already have."

This level of refinement has already occurred over the past few hundred years for many instruments, to the benefit of the one and the many. Right now may be nylon's moment.

Tom 2;

It's almost as if you are messing with me. The book, Vanishing Village, was all about individuals and the many. My new book, just finished, The Global Village, is mostly about the many and the one. Maybe our guitars will look alike. Somewhere, over the rainbow.....

[robailey]

Originally Posted by Tom2

Through my work, I have discovered that an adjustment of a single parameter by as little as 0.1mm can spell the difference between,"Wow, where can I buy one of these," and "No thanks, I'll stick with what I already have."

... and this is why it's so challenging to read through all these comments and develop the right guitar.

Rob;

A colleague of mine says that "if our contemplation is not to turn to despair or lethargy we must in time take action."

[Tom2]

Having played one configuration for about a month, I have a slight change in the equation. This is because the high E string slipped off the fretboard edge about 3 times in that month. Because of this, I'm adding 0.5mm to the neck width at the 12th fret. This adds 0.25mm to the fretboard edge gap for both high and low E strings. The nut equation remains unchanged. The current equations are:

Nut
string spacing + 7mm = neck width

12th Fret
string spacing + 9.5mm = neck width

A string spacing of 41mm at the nut and 55mm at the saddle produces a string spacing of 48mm at the 12th fret. With the new equation, this requires a neck that is 48mm at the nut and 57.5mm at the 12th fret.

Having played an actual classical guitar for the past two years, with a string spacing of 43mm at the nut, I appreciate the playing options that a wider string spacing provides. So my new configuration has a 41.5mm string spacing at the nut, while keeping the saddle at 55mm. This creates a 48.25mm string spacing at the 12th fret.

Using my new equation, this produces a neck that is 48.5mm at the nut and 57.75mm at the 12th fret. Since I obviously can't modify the neck width of my guitar, I use the high E string as the anchor and set everything up as if the neck was wider, and allow the error to accumulate at the low E fretboard edge gap.

The goal of a crossover is to get the neck as narrow as possible while still honoring the physics of nylon strings, so my desire is to see if the benefits of 0.5mm additional string spacing is worth the cost of adding 0.5mm to the neck width. My initial reaction is yes, and I'll probably use this setup for about a month before changing anything else.

Looking at it from the perspective of individual string spacing at the nut (center to center, equal spacing) a crossover could use spacing of 8.0mm, 8.1mm, 8.2mm, or 8.3mm. This produces a total string spacing of 40mm, 40.5mm, 41mm, or 41.5mm. Depending on a player's hand size or playing style, I can imagine all of these widths as being meaningful, and a custom nut is a common modification.

Using the 7mm minimum total fretboard edge gap guideline:
48.5mm neck width can accommodate all of these string spacings.
48mm looses the 41.5mm option.
1 7/8" (47.6mm) looses the 41.5mm and 41mm options.