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  #31  
Old 04-30-2005, 08:08 AM
edman edman is offline
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Originally Posted by ~j~
I don't think taylor cares so much if they do something unorthodox just because it's better, like the NT neck. so if laminate was in any way better for anything, it seems like they would have at least either addressed that in wood & steel, website, etc. or taken it into consdieration for building. IMO glue inbetween the layers of wood in a laminate is a damper, there's no other way of looking at it, it's just like a calorimeter where the air will completely disallow temperature gradients.
One other factor to consider: if laminates were capable of producing equal or better tone, Martin, Taylor, Gibson and others would use them more. Laminate is cheaper. Cheaper production equals increased profit margins.

Solid wood is better.
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  #32  
Old 04-30-2005, 08:29 AM
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Originally Posted by ~j~
I don't think taylor cares so much if they do something unorthodox just because it's better, like the NT neck. so if laminate was in any way better for anything, it seems like they would have at least either addressed that in wood & steel, website, etc. or taken it into consdieration for building. IMO glue inbetween the layers of wood in a laminate is a damper, there's no other way of looking at it, it's just like a calorimeter where the air will completely disallow temperature gradients.
Glue as a damper? Not necessarily. Much like wood, glue can dry to different levels of density and hardness. For example, epoxy is much more dense than rubber cement.

I like solid wood more than laminate, not because there's anything wrong with laminated, but moreso because I'm willing to pay for what I perceive to be higher quality materials. Nothing more, nothing less.
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  #33  
Old 04-30-2005, 10:13 AM
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I have some really nice guitars, Taylors and Gibsons, and I have some really cheap acoustics, Washburns, Fenders and Ibanez'...

The good guitars are solid wood and perform as advertised. Among the cheap guitars, the Fender and the Ibanez have solid tops with laminated bodies. They seem to sound reasonable and have good volume, not that I would ever compare them to my Gibby jumbo.

The Washburn on the other hand is one of their inexpensive imported models, but it is solid wood through and through. It's heavy as hell. It has a pleasant tone, but you couldn't get good volume out of it if your life depended on it. I don't know a lot about guitar construction, but I'm sort of convinced it has more to do with the internal structure and bracing than anything else.

I think a solid top with laminated back and sides, then a lightly braced inside, and overall light weight can be a great guitar for the money.
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  #34  
Old 04-30-2005, 10:41 AM
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Originally Posted by stratokatsu
I have some really nice guitars, Taylors and Gibsons, and I have some really cheap acoustics, Washburns, Fenders and Ibanez'...

The good guitars are solid wood and perform as advertised. Among the cheap guitars, the Fender and the Ibanez have solid tops with laminated bodies. They seem to sound reasonable and have good volume, not that I would ever compare them to my Gibby jumbo.

The Washburn on the other hand is one of their inexpensive imported models, but it is solid wood through and through. It's heavy as hell. It has a pleasant tone, but you couldn't get good volume out of it if your life depended on it. I don't know a lot about guitar construction, but I'm sort of convinced it has more to do with the internal structure and bracing than anything else.

I think a solid top with laminated back and sides, then a lightly braced inside, and overall light weight can be a great guitar for the money.
That's funny, because I have a solid tone wood Washburn dread (rosewood and spruce) that sounds awesome and is VERY loud. It's not very heavy either.
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  #35  
Old 04-30-2005, 10:54 AM
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Originally Posted by ~j~
the original post I was questioning by Sandy indicated that she said that laminate sides are more rigid, which I just don't buy from a materials and physics perspective.
Im not a physics major or anything, but sometimes what seems correct in theory, doesnt hold up in reality... I've owned a rosewood Seagull with solid top and back but laminate sides and i've noticed the same thing Sandy noticed... it doesnt seem to affect the tone of the guitar that much. In fact, I've had some pretty talented people actually prefer my Seagull to higher end rosewood guitars. That being said, im not neceesarily saying the sides dont affect the tone at all...i just think that, it may not be as a big issue. The top and back affect the tone a lot more. just my two cents.

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  #36  
Old 04-30-2005, 04:22 PM
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[QUOTE=William63]Before I ever owned a high end guitar, I never cared what the tonewood was, or if it was solid or laminate. Now, as I am becoming knowledgeable about the various tonewoods, there seems to be the attitude that solid wood back and sides are superior to a laminate.

But I'm questioning that theory. My friend owns a Seagull with a cedar top and laminate wild cherry back and sides. In tone and volume that relatively inexpensive guitar rivals my expensive Guild JF55 jumbo in both tone and volume.
QUOTE]

I say if it sounds good, play it!

BTW I thought the JF55 had laminate back and sides?
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  #37  
Old 04-30-2005, 05:32 PM
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everyone remember the taylor pallet guitar? made from the remains of a shipping pallet with a cool fork lift inlay. if i recall, the point was that the type and quality of wood matters much less than the quality of the construction.

so i think most experiences we have in the "solid vs. laminate" comparison really come down to the build quality of the solid vs. the build quality of the laminate, rather than the actual wood.
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  #38  
Old 04-30-2005, 05:43 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edman
Laminate is a nice word for plywood. The glue between the layers can break down, therefore creating tonal problems.

Are there excellent sounding laminate guitars? Yes.

However, most laminate guitars sound weak when played next to a solid wood guitar.

I prefer solid wood.
While I agree that all-solid guitars are generally tonally superior ( I own 3), I disagree with a couple statements. Guitar builders such as Kuzio Yairi have and still build extremely high quality guitars with laminates. I owned 2 high end Yairis, but was bitten by the "solid" bug and traded them. I wish like heck I had them back. One was 20 years old and sounded amazing. I am sure the glues used are not Walmart quality glues and I bet they know what they are doing.
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  #39  
Old 04-30-2005, 05:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ~j~
So for laminate, you have alternating layers of glue in there, that will definitely dissipate sound into the sides. I'm getting a bit confused as to whether the idea is that laminate sides are better in that case, i.e. more rigid or solid wood would be better. the original post I was questioning by Sandy indicated that she said that laminate sides are more rigid, which I just don't buy from a materials and physics perspective.
I got my information from the Simon & Patrick website when I was checking for information about my son's dread. Think of the sides as loadbearing walls.
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  #40  
Old 04-30-2005, 05:58 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Sandy
I got my information from the Simon & Patrick website when I was checking for information about my son's dread. Think of the sides as loadbearing walls.
Makes sense to me. I read where a Luthier said, "Think of it as a drum with the top stretched tight and the sides bearing the stress."
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  #41  
Old 04-30-2005, 06:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chicago Sandy
I got my information from the Simon & Patrick website when I was checking for information about my son's dread. Think of the sides as loadbearing walls.
thanks for the follow-up sandy. By this train of thought wouldn't you think that some guitar-maker would use even more rigid materials or even aluminum or some other metal for the sides?
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  #42  
Old 04-30-2005, 07:13 PM
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Originally Posted by BigMo66
While I agree that all-solid guitars are generally tonally superior ( I own 3), I disagree with a couple statements. Guitar builders such as Kuzio Yairi have and still build extremely high quality guitars with laminates. I owned 2 high end Yairis, but was bitten by the "solid" bug and traded them. I wish like heck I had them back. One was 20 years old and sounded amazing. I am sure the glues used are not Walmart quality glues and I bet they know what they are doing.
Walmart quality glue? I never mention inferior glue.

Laminates (plywood) can seperate regardless of the type of glue used. Another problem is the air pockets between layers.

I never said laminate builders don't know what they are doing. I said there are some awesome sounding laminate guitars. However, what is more common: crappy sounding laminates or awesome sounding laminates? Keep it in proper perspective. You are talking about the exception, not the rule.

I had a solid spruce top, laminate sides and back Seagull for 8 years. It had a very nice sound. I am not a solid wood snob. I am a realist. If laminates could match solids, every Taylor, Martin and Gibson would be a laminate. Those companies could double their profits.
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  #43  
Old 04-30-2005, 07:20 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edman
I had a solid spruce top, laminate sides and back Seagull for 8 years. It had a very nice sound. I am not a solid wood snob. I am a realist. If laminates could match solids, every Taylor, Martin and Gibson would be a laminate. Those companies could double their profits.
It's all in what the market will bear. When people look at a guitar with a street price of $700+, they're expecting solid wood. Can Taylor, Martin, or Gibson make a laminated guitar that sounds as good as a solid one? I tend to think they could... in fact, I think a good laminated guitar will sound better than the occasional "dog" solid-wood guitar. That said, will the buyer (the market) pay more for a laminated guitar, regardless of how much better it might sound? I doubt it.

As a realist, I expect that you'd be willing to pay more for a laminated guitar than a solid-wood guitar if it sounded better to you?
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  #44  
Old 04-30-2005, 08:17 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by edman
Walmart quality glue? I never mention inferior glue.

Laminates (plywood) can seperate regardless of the type of glue used. Another problem is the air pockets between layers.

I never said laminate builders don't know what they are doing. I said there are some awesome sounding laminate guitars. However, what is more common: crappy sounding laminates or awesome sounding laminates? Keep it in proper perspective. You are talking about the exception, not the rule.

I had a solid spruce top, laminate sides and back Seagull for 8 years. It had a very nice sound. I am not a solid wood snob. I am a realist. If laminates could match solids, every Taylor, Martin and Gibson would be a laminate. Those companies could double their profits.
Of course most "cheap" guitars are laminates and most high end guitars are solid, but when some folks want to drive home a point, the term "plywood" is used when laminate is more realistic in guitar making. Yes, it is a "ply", but in the case of guitars such as a Yairi or any quality laminate it is not the plywood you buy at Home Depot nor is it remotely similar. The 1986 DY45 and the 1989 DY74C I owned were fantastic guitars in every way and tonally superior to many of the solid guitars I have owned since. It may be the exception, but it is certainly not rare.

With that being said, I now own solid wood guitars only because I like them and can afford them. I like solid furniture also and so on and so on....
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  #45  
Old 04-30-2005, 08:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Randal_S
It's all in what the market will bear. When people look at a guitar with a street price of $700+, they're expecting solid wood. Can Taylor, Martin, or Gibson make a laminated guitar that sounds as good as a solid one? I tend to think they could... in fact, I think a good laminated guitar will sound better than the occasional "dog" solid-wood guitar. That said, will the buyer (the market) pay more for a laminated guitar, regardless of how much better it might sound? I doubt it.

As a realist, I expect that you'd be willing to pay more for a laminated guitar than a solid-wood guitar if it sounded better to you?
Yes. No question about it. I buy guitars based on the playability and the sound. It's not a price issue with me or a name brand issue either.

I have yet to encounter a laminate guitar that out performed solid wood guitars while shopping for new guitars.

I only buy what sounds good to me, regardless of brand or construction. I would buy a Rainsong guitar if I thought it had a nice sound
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