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  #16  
Old 03-12-2018, 10:09 AM
Billkwando Billkwando is offline
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Originally Posted by fazool View Post
Just FYI, The Taylors are not veneer. "Veneer" is a very specific thing with a specific definition and that is not what those are. The word is often misused.
You made this assertion in another thread recently, and I had asked you to elaborate, because this is quite simply incorrect (I think), and not a misuse at all in this case....at least as far as my understanding of what a veneer is, is.





Skip to about 18:46. It's definitely 2 veneers surrounding what I assume is solid poplar. This is a Taylor Academy 10.

Having known only what it is called in the specs, I found the term "layered sapele" quite misleading. It's really poplar with a sapele garnish.
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  #17  
Old 03-12-2018, 10:54 AM
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fazool fazool is offline
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Originally Posted by Billkwando View Post
You made this assertion in another thread recently, and I had asked you to elaborate, because this is quite simply incorrect (I think), and not a misuse at all in this case....at least as far as my understanding of what a veneer is, is....
scroll up and see my elaboration in both replies #11 and #13.

The purely dictionary definition of veneer could be a purely cosmetic covering but the commonly accepted woodworking definition is a junk wood covered with paper. (imprecise definition language used to exaggerate the contrast)
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  #18  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:01 AM
RefrigRaider RefrigRaider is offline
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"Veneer" is a term used occasionally at the Taylor website to describe their laminates. This article is an example.
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  #19  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:07 AM
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Originally Posted by RefrigRaider View Post
"Veneer" is a term used occasionally at the Taylor website to describe their laminates. This article is an example.
Yep. Perfect example of the word's meaning being very malleable.

So, you are right, if Andy Powers calls it "veneer", then I guess I have to concede the point and say "well I guess that's the new definition of the word "veneer" now.

If I was a saracastic Wordy I would say that his dictionary now includes "intonation" and "veneer"
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  #20  
Old 03-12-2018, 11:35 AM
Billkwando Billkwando is offline
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Originally Posted by fazool View Post
If I was a saracastic Wordy I would say that his dictionary now includes "intonation" and "veneer"
Well played.
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  #21  
Old 03-12-2018, 12:58 PM
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Quite often when I play my Taylor 210 DLX, I find it so thrilling that I seriously wonder whether I need any other guitar. I don't care tuppence about the layered-back-and-sides construction in a guitar that sounds this good, and holds its own alongside its stablemates (which include an HD28V, an 810, and a 914ce).

Point is, a well-designed layered wood guitar is still a good guitar, regardless of any prejudice I might or might not have about layered woods. I say: don't rule it out on that basis. But do go for the DLX 200 series, because their inner layer of tonewood (as well as outer) makes a significant difference to the sound.
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Old 03-12-2018, 02:22 PM
musicman1951 musicman1951 is offline
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The wood from the video absolutely fits my understanding of veneer. The face piece is quite thin, but that's not part of the definition. Some fine cabinetmakers make their own bandsawn veneer and it's no where near as thin as commercial veneer.

I suspect the fact than a lot of cheap furniture has a poor quality substrate gives veneer a bad reputation.
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  #23  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:06 PM
Billkwando Billkwando is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by N+1 View Post
Quite often when I play my Taylor 210 DLX, I find it so thrilling that I seriously wonder whether I need any other guitar. I don't care tuppence about the layered-back-and-sides construction in a guitar that sounds this good, and holds its own alongside its stablemates (which include an HD28V, an 810, and a 914ce).

Point is, a well-designed layered wood guitar is still a good guitar, regardless of any prejudice I might or might not have about layered woods.
I totally agree. After all, I bought mine fully knowing it wasn't solid. I just take a little issue (as usual) with Taylor's marketing malarkey (markelarkey??)

Doesn't change how much I love my guitar, or how great it sounds.

BTW I don't wonder....I know I don't need another guitar.


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Originally Posted by musicman1951 View Post
The wood from the video absolutely fits my understanding of veneer.
Mine too!

I don't care about it being a decorative veneer. One of my electrics has a maple "top" that is basically the same thing. Heck, I wish Taylor had been kind enough to give the front of my headstock a veneer as well! That black matte overlay is just kinda "there".
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2016 The Loar LM-310f mandolin (with JJB piezos)
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1996 Fernandes LA-85KK (L'Arc~en~Ciel "Ken" signature)
1999 Fernandes LD-95KK Love Driver (L'Arc~en~Ciel "Ken" signature)
1998 Ibanez JS10th "Chromeboy" (Satriani signature)
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  #24  
Old 03-12-2018, 04:42 PM
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I was just reading today that around 1963/4, John Lennon bought a Gibson J160 (??) which had a 3-ply top! And that was an upgrade from what he'd had before.

Didn't seem to hold him back in any way ...
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  #25  
Old 03-12-2018, 07:29 PM
AZLiberty AZLiberty is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by fazool View Post
the commonly accepted woodworking definition is a junk wood covered with paper.
I worked as a cabinet maker for several years. Veneer refers to a thin wood decorative top layer over a less expensive core wood.

While they can be as thin as 0.003" (3 thou) they are generally around 15-20 thousandths of an inch thick. (old timers would say 15-20 "mils")

As can be seen in the video above, Taylor uses a 10-15 mil veneer over a nominal 100-120 mil core of poplar.

Guild used to use a 3-layer construction where each layer was of equal thickness (center was always mahogany) for their arch backs. Tacoma did something similar for their sides when they were learning to bend cutaways.

That's not what Taylor does. Taylor's wood veneer is strictly cosmetic and Bob Taylor himself has repeatedly stated that is has no effect on the sound.
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  #26  
Old 03-12-2018, 08:16 PM
v32 finish v32 finish is offline
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Originally Posted by Tommy_G View Post
Final word: it all comes down to the individual guitar.and brand only plays a small role. The serendipity of a bunch of pieces of wood working well together is where the magic is.

This is a fantastic quote. A bunch of wood working together.. there is almost something spiritual in the crafting and playing of the acoustic guitar, and that statement just captured it perfectly*.

Anyway. I would agree -- the better guitar is whichever one "speaks" to you -- I've never had much experience with breedlove, but have seen some beautiful ones. You said you'd probably be ordering online right... but is there anywhere you can try them out in person? Personally would probably go with the Taylor.. I love the koa 200 series DLX (or the regular, for that matter). But there's also a couple beautiful Breedloves I've seen recently (concert series?) that I would love to play. I think you have to trust your gut - and if you have second thoughts, you can always sell and trade up. Good luck and let us know what you decide!
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  #27  
Old 03-12-2018, 09:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiberty View Post
...

As can be seen in the video above, Taylor uses a 10-15 mil veneer over a nominal 100-120 mil core of poplar......

I was convinced their outer layers were significantly thicker. I remember a video I thought Bob Taylor talked about that and looking at the cross section through the endpin hole it appears much thicker than than.

I also thought I read Bob (and later Andy) say the surface wood does have damping effects and will effect incident sound waves (bouncing off them) and there will be some effect on tone.

hmmmmmm I don't know why I remember that but I am (or was?) convinced of that.
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  #28  
Old 03-13-2018, 02:51 AM
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Hi Susan,

We all love our guitar-nerd talk, but getting back to your original post – Taylor and Breedlove are both reliable and experienced builders. Your chances of getting a problem guitar from either are minimal.

So go with what you like about the sound and the feel of the guitar. The way the wood is used is far less important that what you hear, and whether you like to play the guitar. Trust and respect your ears and your hands! And if you want a second opinion take a friend to a shop, play/listen, then discuss how you both react to each guitar.

If I read between the lines in your post, I am left wondering whether you have tried one particular model by Breedlove but are thinking of buying a different model. In that case sound and feel could vary significantly, as that is the whole point of having different models. It would be really good for you to try the specific model you want before you buy one.
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  #29  
Old 03-13-2018, 04:21 AM
N+1 N+1 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AZLiberty View Post
Taylor's wood veneer is strictly cosmetic and Bob Taylor himself has repeatedly stated that is has no effect on the sound.
Check the current issue of Wood and Steel, where Bob Taylor answers a question I asked about this very issue. It's clear from his reply that he hasn't recently compared the sounds of the various 200 DLX series instruments. The fact that he has said on previous occasions that the tonewood layer is only cosmetic has given rise to an oft-repeated myth that it is so.

It isn't so, and the very clear differences can be demonstrated in the space of a minute simply by playing a koa 214 DLX for 30 seconds and then comparing it with a maple 214 DLX for the next 30 seconds. (It must be a DLX because the back and sides have the tonewood layer inside as well as outside.) It takes no specialised sensitivity to hear the remarkable and obvious difference. Anyone can hear it. It would be easily possible to adore the warm rich sound of a koa-layered 214 DLX, and dislike the bell-like clarity of a maple-layerd 214 DLX (or vice versa).

The point here - going back now to the OP - is that if you play a 200-series DLX guitar and don't like it, that's one thing. But to rule it out purely on the basis of it having laminate back and sides would be ill-advised.

Incidentally, in that same letter in Wood and Steel, I asked Bob Taylor about the thickness of the veneer layers. His reply: 0.5mm (0.020") or 0.7mm (.028")
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  #30  
Old 03-13-2018, 06:44 AM
troystory92 troystory92 is offline
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Hello,

So you probably got more than ya bargained for with your original post


I've had experience with Breedlove and Taylor. BOTH exceptional guitar companies.
I believe it was three workers from Taylor who left and started Breedlove, so there's that.

I previously owned a Breedlove Passport guitar which had laminated back and sides. I loved the crap out of that Breedlove, it was my first great guitar (and for only $500) I gigged with it until the electronics died and then upgraded to a Taylor. Now I own a Taylor 214ce-k dlx.

A note about the 200 dlx series vs the regular 200 and 100 series.
The dlx has the same inner veneer as the outer veneer (rosewood, koa, etc.) while the others always have sapele veneer on the inside with walnut or koa on the outside. Some may say this doesn't affect the sound, but it did to my ear.

The best advice I can give you is to PLAY BOTH GUITARS. We can all give you our opinions until we are blue in the face but only you know what will be best for you.

Best of luck in your buying process!
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