adirondack vs sitka spruce

[banpreso]

coming back to the topic of adi vs. sitka.

it's been my experience, that because of some of the qualities of adi spruce (quick response, string clarity, headroom, overtones, etc), it's easier for a good adi top guitar to sound immediately impressive to the player upon the first few minutes of playing it. it's easier for the player to be wowed by the tone of a good adi top guitar right away, and notice “more” of everything that’s going on.

as for stika, it's more likely for an excellent sitka guitar to be very humble sounding upon the first few minutes of playing it. there's less wow factor in the sound initially, but when the player takes the guitar home and spend some serious time with it in a quite environment, the richness, warmth, and balance in notes would be revealed to the fingerstyle player. it usually takes some time to discover a good sitka guitar.

those have been my experience.

[banpreso]

Originally Posted by JeremyG

If you'll permit me a new guy blurb, given all this specialized Adi/Sitka/Engle. etc talk from the pro's here..

But..each and every.. time I pick up my gently used GA-8 (EIR/Engleman) Taylor, it never fails to amaze me how clear, clean, crisp yet deeply rich and "bronzy" (on the low E and A) this instrument sounds. It's amazing!

I know I don't have anywhere near the ear/appreciation you folks have but...I just had to blab! You guys must have REALLY good ears.

After 10-11 yrs absence from my old '88 HD-28, this thing amazes me.

Totally surprised this kid!

Carry on.

you know what, i played some adi topped 7 series taylors, GA and DN. and wow! they felt to me heads and shoulders above the other taylors in the room (and there were a lot of them).

[Howard Klepper]

Originally Posted by keyshore

sorry dont mean to hijack this thread

Hi Howard,

i have often heard that the German and/or Italian spruces sold in the US are actually Engelman imported back to a US at a hefty price by some dishonest dealers.

How do luthiers make out the difference?

Best,

Keyshore

This is supposed to have been done by one company about 30 years ago.

It may be visually impossible to tell them apart, but Euro is usually stiffer. If the Engelmann was impossible to tell from the Euro in all ways, that would raise the question why it matters.

The wood business runs a lot on trust. I buy from sources I think are reliable. Most of them cut logs and mill them themselves.

[SpruceTop]

Originally Posted by Matt Mustapick

I certainly respect Howard Klepper's opinion (Hi Howard ) and the opinions of others whose ears tell them first-hand, over a large sampling of guitars, that Adirondack is tops for tone. I'm just not one of them, and that's okay. For me, Sitka and Adirondack are both wonderful.

I am convinced however, that besides those people, there are many many others who are mistakenly assuming that Adirondack is better simply because it is more expensive. Remember, price is determined by supply. If you were to notice that fresh lobster was more expensive in Boise than in Bangor would you then guess that the lobster in Boise was better?

I certainly don't mean to take anything away from Adirondack either. I encourage my customers to consider it, but I don't charge more for it because I want my customer to think about top woods on the merits, not price.

Hi Matt,

The main reason I would choose to buy another new dreadnought model guitar with an Adirondack Spruce Top as opposed to a Sitka Spruce Top, is one of maintaining a traditional connection back to the 1930s Martin Dreadnoughts and Gibson Jumbos (dreads). I'm assuming that all or most of the 1930s models of these brands had Adirondack Spruce Tops? Thus, I'd want to get an Adi-topped guitar mainly for historical reasons and not necessarily for any possible differences in tone compared to a Sitka-topped guitar. I've got a couple of super-toned Sitka-topped dreads now but no Adi-topped dreads and I want remedy this to feel a sense of completeness about my stable. If my future Adi-topped acquisition were to sound great too, so much the better!

Although it may sound silly to some, I wonder if many other players feel a similar compulsion towards adding at least one Adi-topped guitar to their collection for a reason similar to mine of maintaining a historical connection to the 1930s "Golden Era" axes?

Regards,

SpruceTop
P.S. I've played several Adi-topped guitars (more specifically, a new Huss & Dalton DS Adi-top ($750 option) with EIR vs. my new Huss & Dalton DS Sitka-top with EIR), and didn't perceive their tone as being much different than Sitka-topped guitars. Certainly, no "Eureka" moments were had.

[terrapin]

Kind of a side track to this thread, but here is a question for Howard, Tim, Matt and whoever. Adirondack is often referred to as "red spruce". Is there a particular reason for this other than for taxonomy purposes. And, if a particular guitar is advertised with "red spruce top and bracing" does this in essence mean Adi top and bracing???

Thanks,

[min7b5]

One of my students brought his SCGC 00 with Sitka to do a little A/B a while ago. So this isn't very scientific, but we did make an effort. Both guitars sport ej16’s, though his were only a day old, and mine have been on for a busy week. The setups are just about exactly the same. We use the same guy in town...

We pointed the center of the X of the two mics at the 19th fret, from eight inches away. Made a good effort to hold the guitars the same way (tilting up at about thirty degrees, and not touching my belly- which is getting harder and harder since I hit my forties) and picked at same distance from the bridge, basically right along the bridge side of the rosette. We just put it on Garage Band with no compression or eq, but I did add a little reverb only because I think this room sucks. If it bothers anyone I can post another one dry.

Here’s an mp3 (two short clips. The first of each is the sitka)

http://www.ericskye.com/music/Double_0%5C's.mp3

I think we both felt like it was harder to tell them apart in person. On tape, or whatever is it in there, the red spruce 00 seems to have more impact. It sounds almost the same, but it’s hitting the mics harder. It’s a punchy guitar -for want of a better term.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by min7b5

One of my students brought his SCGC 00 with Sitka to do a little A/B a while ago. So this isn't very scientific, but we did make an effort. Both guitars sport ej16’s, though his were only a day old, and mine have been on for a busy week. The setups are just about exactly the same. We use the same guy in town...

We pointed the center of the X of the two mics at the 19th fret, from eight inches away. Made a good effort to hold the guitars the same way (tilting up at about thirty degrees, and not touching my belly- which is getting harder and harder since I hit my forties) and picked at same distance from the bridge, basically right along the bridge side of the rosette. We just put it on Garage Band with no compression or eq, but I did add a little reverb only because I think this room sucks. If it bothers anyone I can post another one dry.

Here’s an mp3 (two short clips. The first of each is the sitka)

http://www.ericskye.com/music/Double_0%5C's.mp3

I think we both felt like it was harder to tell them apart in person. On tape, or whatever is it in there, the red spruce 00 seems to have more impact. It sounds almost the same, but it’s hitting the mics harder. It’s a punchy guitar -for want of a better term.

min7b5,

Thanks for the recording comparison. Very nicely done! I have to admit, the differences in sound to my ears is quite subtle. On the first lick played, I am guessing that the Sitka top was first, followed by the Adi top. Am I right? (Or not?)

Thanks again.
- Glenn

[blue-wily-fox]

I think bracing may be more of a factor than top wood when talking about tone. I've played Adi's that were unbelievable, and some were duds. Same with Sitka. Once again....play the guitar, and stop trying to generalize. You can't make a blanket statement about a tone wood. In Canada, there is a funny expression, "To each his own", said the farmer kissing his pig. Play first, pay later.....

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by Glennwillow

min7b5,

... On the first lick played, I am guessing that the Sitka top was first, followed by the Adi top. Am I right? (Or not?)

Yeah. So I recording the sitka first playing some little fingerpicking chords, followed by more or less the same thing with the adi.

Then I play a few flatpicked blues licks with the sitka, and then a few blues licks with the adi. So the order as you're hearing it is sit/adi/sit/adi. Hope that makes sense.

[Glennwillow]

Originally Posted by min7b5

Yeah. So I recording the sitka first playing some little fingerpicking chords, followed by more or less the same thing with the adi.

Then I play a few flatpicked blues licks with the sitka, and then a few blues licks with the adi. So the order as you're hearing it is sit/adi/sit/adi. Hope that makes sense.

min7b5,

Whoa! For once I was actually correct! I have several with Sitka tops, one with an Adi top, and your recording does stay true to my memory of the difference in sound.

Bottom line -- when a couple of well-made guitars are played side-by-side, the difference between Sitka and Adi is audible but subtle.

Again, nicely done -- Thank You!

- Glenn

[banpreso]

Originally Posted by terrapin

Kind of a side track to this thread, but here is a question for Howard, Tim, Matt and whoever. Adirondack is often referred to as "red spruce". Is there a particular reason for this other than for taxonomy purposes. And, if a particular guitar is advertised with "red spruce top and bracing" does this in essence mean Adi top and bracing???

Thanks,

i think it's called red spruce because the more visible grain line is red in color

[jeremy3220]

This quote is by John Arnold discussing where Picea Rubens got its name.

Originally Posted by John Arnold

Red spruce is named for the color of the cones and inner bark, not because of the red streaks in the wood. All spruces have red streaks, which are due to loose knots. The oldtimers called it ‘red horse’. It is purely a coincidence that much of the red spruce cut today has the red streaks, since most of the trees are second growth and have more knots. A spruce tree is shade tolerant, and can take 100 years to shed its lower limbs. It is only because red spruce is now so rare in guitar size that these red streaks have become accepted, although they are purely a cosmetic flaw.

[banpreso]

haha! i was wrong...

[wthurman]

Originally Posted by ljguitar

Hi Tim, Matt, Howard...
Several thoughts as a player I hope are relevant to the topic.

The point of this post is I really believe the builder is a key difference to the tonal differences in different species of Spruces being unleashed (for lack of a better term).

1. Different varieties of Spruce do exhibit different tonal characteristics
2. Different builders exploit the various (sometimes unique) properties of different Spruces in different ways...resulting in a variety of great results from the same woods.
3. Different players may not all want a quick responding note, stronger fundamental, nor less overtones...

I have a very rich, robust EIR/Cedar Dreadnaught and when I was commissioning a companion guitar built for it, it ended up being a very lightly built Myrtlewood/Italian Spruce OM which is still very mellow and sweet...fewer overtones, and very smooth, warm tone without quick response but sustains forever (figuratively).

My third handbuilt, which compliments both of the others, is a Koa/Sitka mini-jumbo which has very strong fundamental with some really nice overtones...quick response and amazing sustain.

None of the three is as strong on it's own as when combined (for recording purposes). Each has tremendous strengths which the other two only touch on, or overlap a bit with.

If I were to add a fourth, it would likely be an OM or GC sized Rosewood/German Spruce built by Gerald Sheppard. I played one of his at Healdsburg 2005 that is one of the finest examples of a balance between the EIR/Cedar and Brazilian/Adirondack I've ever played.

The point of this post is I really believe the builder is a key difference to the tonal differences in different species of Spruces being unleashed (for lack of a better term).

Ah, Larry, you said it much better than I.

[690MBCOMMANDO]

Originally Posted by banpreso

i think it's called red spruce because the more visible grain line is red in color

Yes, that's the typical one, however there is some really high grade adi out there that is straight, creamy and almost englemann looking. Very rare but gorgeous. I have one coming on my Greenfield G2 in a few months....

Here are few examples from Jim Olson of this kind of Adi...