Kemper modeler vs. "real" amps

[sandspike15]

I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately. I'm at the beginning (again) of returning to playing electric after a long hiatus and gear purge. If I start buying everything I'd like to have available- multiple heads (Marshall for crunch, Fender for cleans w/ good onboard reverb, Orange/Randall/Engl, etc) PLUS all of the latest/ greatest pedals to squeeze the sound I want out of them AND cabs with multiple different vintage to modern speakers...WHEW!... I'm going to have to mortgage the house. And commit to finding it all as well!

Really considering buying a Kemper instead. Seems like I'd have the equivalent of the entire Amplifier/Pedal Hall of Fame at my fingertips, without having to find room to store all of it. Based on the Andertons review, it seems like a no-brainer. They couldn't even tell the difference with sensitivity to pick attack, dynamics, note decay, etc.

For a guy that'll (most likely) never play out, or doesn't have the intent to record- EVER- does this not seem like a slam dunk?

[buzzardwhiskey]

Originally Posted by sandspike15

I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately. I'm at the beginning (again) of returning to playing electric after a long hiatus and gear purge. If I start buying everything I'd like to have available- multiple heads (Marshall for crunch, Fender for cleans w/ good onboard reverb, Orange/Randall/Engl, etc) PLUS all of the latest/ greatest pedals to squeeze the sound I want out of them AND cabs with multiple different vintage to modern speakers...WHEW!... I'm going to have to mortgage the house. And commit to finding it all as well!

Really considering buying a Kemper instead. Seems like I'd have the equivalent of the entire Amplifier/Pedal Hall of Fame at my fingertips, without having to find room to store all of it. Based on the Andertons review, it seems like a no-brainer. They couldn't even tell the difference with sensitivity to pick attack, dynamics, note decay, etc.

For a guy that'll (most likely) never play out, or doesn't have the intent to record- EVER- does this not seem like a slam dunk?

I am beginning to entertain the idea of going electric with some of my songs, and the Kemper seems ideal for me and my band situation.

[Bob Womack]

Originally Posted by sandspike15

For a guy that'll (most likely) never play out, or doesn't have the intent to record- EVER- does this not seem like a slam dunk?

I'm seeing the Kemper used in both situations - live and recording. In fact, I know of one artist who plays through a set of fender Prosonics onstage but when they are recording for DVD or Bluray he also sends to a Kemper for the record because the last album was done entirely on Kempers.

Bob

[Scotso]

Originally Posted by sandspike15

I've been thinking about this topic a lot lately. I'm at the beginning (again) of returning to playing electric after a long hiatus and gear purge. If I start buying everything I'd like to have available- multiple heads (Marshall for crunch, Fender for cleans w/ good onboard reverb, Orange/Randall/Engl, etc) PLUS all of the latest/ greatest pedals to squeeze the sound I want out of them AND cabs with multiple different vintage to modern speakers...WHEW!... I'm going to have to mortgage the house. And commit to finding it all as well!

Really considering buying a Kemper instead. Seems like I'd have the equivalent of the entire Amplifier/Pedal Hall of Fame at my fingertips, without having to find room to store all of it. Based on the Andertons review, it seems like a no-brainer. They couldn't even tell the difference with sensitivity to pick attack, dynamics, note decay, etc.

For a guy that'll (most likely) never play out, or doesn't have the intent to record- EVER- does this not seem like a slam dunk?

Be careful what you wish for. My modeler journey was a $5000ish investment in equipment- Mission FRFR speaker cabs, new studio monitors, Axe FX, Carvin power amp. The kemper is a bit cheaper. If you want to play thru speaker cabs you own already, you will need a power amp-Kemper brand or other bought separately. If you buy an FRFR speaker cab, you can buy a powered one which eliminates the need for an amp but it is bit more expensive than similar unpowered.

Also tweaking, testing, mixing, equalizing etc is a big part of getting the sound you want to create a pre-set of your own. I did not enjoy the time it took. I like plugging and playing amps I have used for years.

Having said that the system does sound good. Just a different and a bit more complicated experience.

[buzzardwhiskey]

A big part of the appeal for me is not having to buy an amp at all and just using headphones at home and the PA when we play out.

[Scotso]

hey- ya that is a nice part. But it depends on what your band likes. Every band I have played in wanted to hear my speaker cab in practice. Also they wanted some back line even when running through a FOH solution for a live performance. YMMV .

But modelers can be used the way you state.

[myersbw]

I visited this ideology over a year ago. A friend of mine used Bias Amp to record with on his iMac and loved it. I explored and saw BiasFX for the iPad...bought on a black friday sale for $20???

Needed an interface. I looked at the offerings and settled on a Line6 Sonic Port given it's variety of options....headphone out, 1/4 in & out, aux in and cables for old style or new lightning connector.

Amp packs are cheap...Pedal packs are cheap!...gee, even sister apps like Jam Up Pro (the ULTIMATE in practice-with-song-for-learning is cheap)...buy Bias Amp for mobile and completely digital design all aspects of your amp...down to the transformer, mic'd cabs, etc.

I take that setup into church every Sunday and use it without failure...without any perceivable lag (using an iPad Mini). It's flat out amazing and at a fraction of the price of AxeFX or ElevenRack or Kemper. And, the models will give you what you need...then you can tweak further.

And, yes...I still like building hand wired tube amps.

The ultimate rig now? For me? To build a nice warm-toned line-level tube amp and push the iPad through it.

Yep, like most of you...I love both worlds!

[Warrenaines]

Originally Posted by moon

Tubes and transformers have got soul in the same way that a real fire has got soul. It's a hands-on, human-scale technology and that matters. You steal fire from the gods.

Originally Posted by moon

I'd feel fairly confident in being able to build any amp I ever wanted to play and at least 20% of guitarists - maybe more - are in the same boat even if they don't know it yet. You'd be amazed just how simple some of the most well-loved, classic circuits are (eg the Tweed Champ and Deluxe).

Some interesting points, though not sure I agree.

• Tubes are awesome and fun, but they were every bit and more as technologically advanced as a Kemper. The groundwork for tube technology used in classic amps was started by people like Edison and Nikola Tesla, not exactly your average citizen.

• 20% of guitarists being able to build any amp they wanted seems REALLY high, perhaps only accurate because of the caveat 'even if they don't know it yet' and assuming Champs, Deluxe etc. are all they want to play. And the reason whatever % of players can build those is because (i) they've been around for 70 years, and (ii) more importantly, there's incredible resources available on the internet explaining how to build them. I don't think many players have had much luck building a great Dumble clone simply because of the intentional lack of information.

• Relatedly, Dumble and other famous amps are now known for using 'Radio Shack' parts rather than top of the line components. This isn't intended to bash them, but instead demystify that there's inherent magic in tubes -- the magic was in their ears.

• Solid state, modelers etc. have often sounded bad but that's largely because of incentives/business realities that outweighed tone. Many tube amps lost some to a lot of magic from the same circumstances.

• Now Kemper and others are well on their way to producing incredible sounds with new technology, and of course their ears. Yes, hardly anyone today could relatively easily copy a Kemper, but will be a different story in 70 years.

• Not sure why a bright line of 'human scale' technology would be drawn between tube amps and others. Are all stadium scale Mesas and Marshalls (not to mention the Wall of Sound) still human scale? Also not sure it matters -- if it sounds good it is good. The (relatively) cheap Yamaha THR reacts very differently based on playing dynamics; the models react very differently to each with gain/volume and other settings. Of course a $300 (retail) amp with small speakers doesn't sound or react the same as a Matchless or the other 4 amp models, but seems like modelers can soon get there if desired

[Bob Womack]

I'm revisiting this post to point to an interesting article, HERE, concerning the "right" of repair. The subject is the fact that some manufacturers are headed towards making repair impossible in order to support their revenue stream and protect their proprietary systems. Some have gone as far as to attempt to make it illegal for anyone except their authorized service centers to repair their products! It isn't a new idea. Those of you who remember Arp synthesizers may remember the 1970s Arp 2600.

Arp tried a physical means to force all repairs home to the mothership: They simply potted all of the sub-assemblies in their unit in epoxy so that a user or repairman couldn't get access to the circuit, much less trace and repair it. A studio where I worked had one of these on which oscillator #3 became unstable. Once the engineer figured out that it was potted, he brought in a plumber's soldering iron to melt the epoxy off. Knowing that the oscillators were temperature sensitive, they connected up the synth and listened to the output of #3 as they heated it. As they touched the iron to the block the oscillator would begin rising in pitch. The ladies room was next door to the room where they were doing this. Eventually people started sticking their heads in the door to make sure they weren't doing something untoward to a young lady because the oscillator was screeching like a screaming girl. They weren't able to unpot the board but they had a lot of fun.

Back to the discussion, I've had a lot of success with hybrid systems - ie. using a modeler as the front-end of a tube amplifier. Also, going with inexpensive but good-sounding modeling technology and pairing it with tube amps allows you to buy backup gear AND allows you to get the benefits of the tube amp at a MUCH lower volume level. But frankly, while many of the players I've worked with have been green with envy at my sounds, most were unwilling to sink in the hours to learn to manipulate the technology of modeling.

Just my experience.

Bob

[Warrenaines]

Back to the discussion, I've had a lot of success with hybrid systems - ie. using a modeler as the front-end of a tube amplifier. Also, going with inexpensive but good-sounding modeling technology and pairing it with tube amps allows you to buy backup gear AND allows you to get the benefits of the tube amp at a MUCH lower volume level. But frankly, while many of the players I've worked with have been green with envy at my sounds, most were unwilling to sink in the hours to learn to manipulate the technology of modeling.

Just my experience.

Bob[/QUOTE]


Thanks, I'm slowly looking for a tube amp that will sound great at 'bedroom' volume (ie, generally = at volume of loud TV). I realize there's number of options, including simply amp with master volume knob (some working better than others) to 3rd party attenuators/vol control to using a pedal to newer amps with built in attenuator/vol control.

I have a store not too far away with Carr , Swart etc so going to try those and see if the premium is worth it to me.

I haven't yet spent much time looking into using a modeler on the front end. Any recommendations on specific modelers that have worked for you? Likewise, any types of amps this works best (or worse) with? I lean toward the classic Fender tone, but also like a lot of other different tones



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[Bob Womack]

I'm using the much-maligned Line6 gear, specifically the HD500X and have had great results. My review is HERE. I pursue modeling from a standpoint of creating sounds I and my clients like, as opposed to creating exact duplicates of amps. I've had lots of success with this gear. By the way, I run the outputs of the unit to a Marshall combo and a Leslie rotating speaker cab. No-one really does rotating speaker the way I like it in a pedal or modeler!

Bob

[Warrenaines]

Originally Posted by Bob Womack

I'm using the much-maligned Line6 gear, specifically the HD500X and have had great results. My review is HERE. I pursue modeling from a standpoint of creating sounds I and my clients like, as opposed to creating exact duplicates of amps. I've had lots of success with this gear. By the way, I run the outputs of the unit to a Marshall combo and a Leslie rotating speaker cab. No-one really does rotating speaker the way I like it in a pedal or modeler!

Bob

Thanks!.........

[KevWind]

For any that might be interested I just stumbled on this unit. Somewhat similar to the Kemper profiling amp but it is a modeling amp and about $1000 less expensive @ $1200
The Positive Grid Bias Head

https://www.positivegrid.com/bias-head/

Being new to the world of electric's as of last Nov. I am still totally thrilled with my Supro But I found the entire approach of this unit to be really interesting it is either fairly old school with just knobs on the head it self or very contemporary App with GUI like plugins via Bloothtooth or USB

Here is the Andertons review same guys as in the OP's video link.

[redir]

I have to say, I got the chance to play around with a Fly rig for a few weeks a little while back and I found that to be quite impressive. It was the Plexi modeler and it definitely had a bad *** Plexi sound to it. Best part about it was it had that sound all the way down to bedroom volumes. I just plugged it right into some Yamaha powered speakers and it sounded fantastic.

But the I have not messed with modeling stuff since they first came out with the crappy zoom and digitech, even Line6 imho, stuff years ago. Big difference.

[Bob Womack]

There's an article about how modelers are taking over the live scene on page 35 of Tone Report Weekly online mag this week. Go HERE to read it.

Bob