K&K versus Fishman

[schooner]

Many thanks to those of you who responded to my question in an earlier thread about options for electrifying my Taylor GS. Based upon these answers, some online research a couple of dealer visits (largely unhelpful unless you want what they are selling), I think that I have narrowed my choice to the K&K Mini Western and the new Fishman Infinity Matrix.

I would really appreciate the benefit of people's experiences with each of these systems. Please note the following parameters that govern my decision.

• I do not play in a band and do not need to cut through a mix.
• I intend to use this rig with a Roland AC-60 Chorus amp.
• I do not need on board controls.
• I prefer a simple installation with a minimum of modifications to the guitar. The less paraphanalia rattling around in the guitar, the better.
• Irrational or not, I especially do not like the idea of a nine volt battery hung on the inside of the guitar.
• I currently have a bone saddle on this guitar that I would like to preserve if possible.

Fishman's installation guide reccomends use of a synthetic saddle and routing a groove in the bridge for the undersaddle pickup. I understand that the Fishman system can be installed without onboard controls but that this installation eliminates the voicing options otherwise available.

All in all I think that I prefer the K&K system because of its simplicity, but I am still very unclear about the sonic differences between an under saddle system and K&K's adhesive transducers. I am especially concerned about whether one system or the other works best with my amp. Also, if I will need to lose the bone saddle regardless of the system I use, one big plus for K&K disappears.

I am also struggling a bit to understand the whole high impedence/low impedence issue. Does it make a difference in my situation? If I go with the high impedence Mini Western system, does it affect my amp choice? In any event is there some sort of line fix such as an outboard preamp that will do the trick? I am not wedded to the Roland but would like to use it if possible.

Can anyone shed some light on all of this? Sorry if I sound doltish. Someone please let me know if I am way out in left field with any of this.

[donh]

I have zero experience with your Roland amp, but the rest I can address.

Between the Fishman and the K&K I far and away prefer the K&K. Properly installed, the K&K gives both the attack of an undersaddle and the warmth and body of a soundboard transducer.

The K&K Pure Western Mini has no onboard controls (nor needs them), no 9v battery, nor does it require you to change ANYthing about your guitar - just install and play and smile. K&K says it prefers 1-meg loading impedance, but I have used it sucessfully with impedances from 40k to 11meg. (everything is a tone control!)

No worries - enjoy!

[guitaniac]

schooner,

There is an active UST system which requires no battery and sounds very good in my OM with bone saddle. It employs a quickly chargeable super-capacitor which provides a minimum of 8hrs of operation with one charge.
http://elderly.com/new_instruments/items/MSAT1.htm

FWIW, I like the Mi-Si UST system better than the K&K mini-Pure in the same guitar. I've tried a variety of SBTs (soundboard transducers - the type of pickup which the mini-Pure is), but just tend to like the more solid, less ambient sound of USTs (under-saddle tranducers). The fact that USTs tend to be less feedback prone than SBTs is an extra bonus for me.

A negative for USTs is that they are typically quackier than SBTs, being under string pressure and being located directly under the saddle. The Mi-Si system is less quacky than other UST systems I've used, however, due to the nature of the preamp.

FWIW, I just made some simultaneous recordings of both pickups today, and will have time to put them in sequence and post them tomorrow, if you're curious. You may well like the mini-Pure sound the best. A lot of folks do.

Gary

[schooner]

Thanks, Gary. I would love to listen to your sound files if it is not too inconvenient for you.

Putting aside the "quack", which I understand, it seems to me that the essential difference in the two approaches is that some folks think a UST system renders a more detailed sound emphasizing mid range, while sound board transducers deliver a warmer bassier tone. Am I on the right track?

[min7b5]

Originally Posted by schooner

...[*]I do not play in a band and do not need to cut through a mix.[*]I intend to use this rig with a Roland AC-60 Chorus amp.[*]I do not need on board controls.[*]I prefer a simple installation with a minimum of modifications to the guitar. The less paraphanalia rattling around in the guitar, the better....

I'd say K&K for sure

[sdelsolray]

Originally Posted by schooner

All in all I think that I prefer the K&K system because of its simplicity, but I am still very unclear about the sonic differences between an under saddle system and K&K's adhesive transducers.

There is a sonic difference. Generally, the UST is more immediate, more punchy, with decent sustain. A SBT is usually more full sounding, less articulate. Folks generally agree that the SBT sounds more like the guitar unplugged than a UST. Feedback will start sooner with a SBT than with a UST, all other things being equal. I prefer a SBT, and you will need to decide which you prefer, hopefully after hearing and using both.

Mixing a microphone with either a UST or SBT will improve the sound, often dramatically. However, doing that requires a dual source signal chain, which is more complicated and more expensive.

Originally Posted by schooner

I am also struggling a bit to understand the whole high impedence/low impedence issue. Does it make a difference in my situation? If I go with the high impedence Mini Western system, does it affect my amp choice? In any event is there some sort of line fix such as an outboard preamp that will do the trick? I am not wedded to the Roland but would like to use it if possible.

Don't worry about the impedance issue. If it exists between a K&K mini (passive) and your Roland amp, it can be solved with a simple modification to the cable between your guitar and amp. About $1.00 if you DIY.

I realize that you have narrowed your pickup choices down to the K&K and Fishman Infinity. Have you reviewed Doug Young's pickup comparison site? Here's a link:

Doug Young Pickup Comparison Site

[$ongWriter]

Not even close for me...I put a K & K Wester Mini in my Koa Gibson and it's
UNBELIEVABLE!!!!!
The only catch is if you don't like the sound of the guitar then don't use the k & K because it is (to my ears) a very natural sound..
good luck

[schooner]

Thanks, Eric. Great tunes on your site.

[Compurocker]

K&K Pure Western Mini. Minimal Guitar Alterations and great reproduction of Natural Acoustic Sound. Simplicity. The L.R. Baggs iBeam is also outstanding IMHO.

[schooner]

Originally Posted by sdelsolray

I realize that you have narrowed your pickup choices down to the K&K and Fishman Infinity. Have you reviewed Doug Young's pickup comparison site? Here's a link:

Doug Young Pickup Comparison Site

Many thanks. No decision yet. I will be certain to check out this site. Thanks for the link.

[rodders]

If I were you I'd forget the Fishman. The two pickups that will suit what you want are the Baggs i-Beam, and the K&K mini. You could go for the K&K trinity with the internal mic and preamp also.

I do like Fishman pickups for the fact that they are very user friendly, but sound wise they ain't great. If you ever record anything with a Fishman you need to add an effect (reverb, chorus, etc) to take away the quackiness - not with the Baggs or K&K.

[guitaniac]

schooner,

Here are the mp3 comparisons recorded simutaneously off both pickups (Mi-Si UST system and K&K mini-Pure) in my spruce/mahogany Samick OM.
Sound Samples

I broke each track up into playing style sections and ordered them sequentially with the Mi-Si UST system sample first and the mini-Pure sample second. In the interest of fairness, I used two Boss GE-7s, one to preamp and EQ the mini-Pure, one to EQ the Mi-Si system. The signal chains looked like this:

Mi-Si UST system> GE-7> input 1 of Zoom H4 recorder

mini-Pure> GE-7> input 2 of Zoom H4 recorder

The EQ was rather mild and about the same for both pickups, except the mini-Pure was EQed with 2db less at 100Hz and 2db more at 6.4KHz.

The WAV files of the two pickups actually sounded more similar to each other than these mp3 files. That surprised me because these pickups don't sound that similar live. Of course, with live sound you have the added factor of the guitar top interacting with the speaker sound. This phenomenon tends to have more effect on an SBT signal than a UST signal, with respect to making the amplified sound "tubby" and lose clarity on the high end at higher volumes. (Viva the tube preamp which gives a "special shimmer" to the high end and makes adding extra treble a more palatable option for SBT users.)

Another curious aspect of these samples was that the mini-Pure almost seems quackier at times. In my opinion, the Mi-Si preamp really does a good job of taming UST quack. I wonder if it could also be adapted to make the mini-Pure's response a little smoother.

Gary

[sharkydude50]

The K&K PWM will NOT require that you lose the bone saddle.

[schooner]

Originally Posted by guitaniac

schooner,

Here are the mp3 comparisons recorded simutaneously off both pickups (Mi-Si UST system and K&K mini-Pure) in my spruce/mahogany Samick OM.
Sound Samples

Gary-

Thanks a million. Those are just outstanding. I particulary appreciated the chain information.

I did hear it quack! The Mi-Si system looks interesting and I will be checking into it before I do anything. Thanks again for all of the trouble.

Stan

[KyCabnetMkr]

Another K&K user in all of my plugged in acoustics...