TALL, NARROW FRET WIRE: Is there an advantage?

[redir]

I personally like tall frets for the reasons mentioned. Speaking of Blackmore doesn't Ritchie Blackmore get the credit for the whole scalloped fretboard thing? I've played them, they are interesting but I just like the tall frets.

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by redir

I personally like tall frets for the reasons mentioned. Speaking of Blackmore doesn't Ritchie Blackmore get the credit for the whole scalloped fretboard thing? I've played them, they are interesting but I just like the tall frets.

Scalloped fretboards go back before even guitars. As far as first to use it on electric guitar, I believe John McLaughlin was first, with Ritchie Blackmore shortly after. However, Blackmore is the more popular player among rock and even metal players, so I think he is the original motivation for many interested in scallops.

[el_kabong]

Originally Posted by BothHands

I never bend strings, but I slide across frets a lot. I don't like the bump-bump-bump, so I'd be very interested to read what you think about that after a little slide-focused experimentation.

So, anyway, yes, improved sliding too. In either case, we're not talking about a fretless instrument so there are no intermediate frequencies expressed in the process, just the fretted notes. With reduced hand pressure applied (to the taller frets), the sensation is (or can/should be) as smooth, if not smoother, than with lower frets.

IOW, the key (and point/goal) is reduced hand/finger pressure. And, as already mentioned above, this was intended to make it easier to play what I felt was a fairly "tight" feeling instrument. This aspect, I've come to believe, is the result of a combination of factors, not least of which is neck geometry and scale length, but the feel is certainly influenced and/or may be moderated by fret height.

I also desired and hoped for a more clear (or punchier) tone, will less propensity for damping as result of finger/wood contact. I can't say that this changed greatly, but do believe there was some improvement in tone, mostly for the lower register (thicker) strings, where a D-28 type dread can stand to have improved articulation.

I like Blackmore's interpretation of these factors as a matter of "efficiency", for that is precisely how I see it. I'm less sure about the physiology aspect and resulting playing style.

While having fairly average sized hands, my own acquired habit of applying excessive pressure was mostly the result of the dynamics of the particular instruments I was playing, as most exhibited fairly typical Martin specifications. I sense that many gravitate to Gibson and Taylor specs in direct response to these dynamic issues...how often have we heard here just how easy it is to play a Taylor, for instance?

I'm inclined to agree, however, that a lighter touch is highly desirable, when and if supported by the design of the instrument. I figured that out pretty quickly when I got my Bourgeois, realizing that dancing with this new gal was going to require more finesse' than I'd thus far mastered.

cheers, scott

[Ned Milburn]

Originally Posted by BothHands

Ah HA! That makes sense, too. If I have this guitar refretted one day, how about this?

Maybe a wider fret would feel more like a rounded hump than a wall - so my finger would glide over it more, instead of running into it.

~ The wider fret would be like driving over a speed bump.

~ The narrower fret is like driving over a curb.

What do you guys think?

You are right.

A few more general comments.

I don't think it can safely be said that higher frets require less finger pressure.

Good technique is good technique, regardless of the height of the frets. Ultimately, you want to play with just enough finger pressure to fret the notes consistently and grip when necessary for vibrato and bending.

Depending upon the differences in people's fingers, some people might have fingers that are more prone to having the strings sink deeply into the fleshy pad,
while other fingers may have stiff pads with little sinking of the strings into the pad. So, people with "sinky" finger pads may have to press a bit harder with low fretwire, but other than this, it takes just as much pressure to fret a note with standard height frets as with jumbo frets. People's individual finger pads will also be a factor as to which fret is more comfortable.

I also don't think it can be said that taller, or shorter, frets are made for guitars designed for more movement around the fingerboard.

It can be said that with taller frets it will be easier to press strings out of tune with excessive finger pressure. It can be said that generally taller frets will make bending easier. It can be said that in general, taller frets will be "bumpier" when sliding notes, but again this will be highly dependent upon one's finger pads.

[BothHands]

I appreciate all your replies. Thanks a lot; I always benefit greatly by the experiences and perspectives of others. It think Ned Milburn's comments--and particularly his latest post--are most in line with my own observations.

I have good callouses on my left-hand fingertips, but they aren't "rock hard" and there's a permanent string groove running across each. I think the tallness/narrowness of my frets becomes more noticeable when I play for an extended period of time; my fingers don't necessarily get sore, but the groove in each callous seems to deepen during continuous playing. So in effect, the fingertip sort of wraps around the string a bit, and more of my 'finger material' (callous) is bumping across the tops of those frets.

That being the case, I think any refret will involve the same fret height (tall) but a wider fret wire. Here's an example of what I think the benefit will be. The red triangular area next to each fret crown indicates the approximate contact-with-finger area. The contact area for the narrow fret is more narrow and more abrupt than the contact area for the wider fret, which is wide and more gradual, more spread-out.

I agree with Ned. Having studied this for a while now, and running a continuous experiment whenever I play, I really don't think a taller fret affects stiffness or makes straight-on fretting any easier or more difficult than lower frets would - assuming proper/minimal fretting pressure.

I don't bend strings, but I slide, hammer-on and pull-off all the time. I can't see any 'high-fret disadvantage' for those techniques. Add to that the potential for more fret levelings before needing a refret job and I'm sold on higher frets.

I'm liking this guitar more and more as I learn to just accept certain aspects of it (there's a LIFE LESSON in there...)

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by BlackmoresNight

I'm just saying because of my particular physiology, I never had the change to learn a particular bad habit. Sorry if you are bothered by the hands I was born with.

And there are drawbacks to having smaller hands and fingers. I have a lesser reach than most guitarists, nor can I fret two strings with one finger like some with large hands can do.

If you re-read your first post I think you'll see how it looks kinda like, "I (BlackmoresNight) play correctly, and you (BothHands) are an example of 'bad habits'..."

La De Dah.

I guess you didn't mean it that way, and after you added that additional information it all looks pretty harmless...but you didn't include that add'l info in your first post.

No harm done, and we all can use an occasional reality check regarding what kind of impression we're making online (ME especially )

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by el_kabong

Man! That scalloped fretboard is wild-looking! If I had opportunity to play something like that for a while, I'll bet I'd have an easy time applying only the minimum pressure needed for fretting. I say that because the scallops make it perfectly clear to me--in a very visual sense--that I really only need to press the string to the metal fret, NOT to the fretboard.

I already know that, but the constant visual reference/reminder would be a big help. I'm going to try to maintain that image in my head while I play. I think it'll help a lot.

Thanks, Scott, for the image and for the background information.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BothHands;

I can't see any 'high-fret disadvantage' for those techniques. Add to that the potential for more fret levelings before needing a refret job and I'm sold on higher frets.

I'm liking this guitar more and more as I learn to just accept certain aspects of it (there's a LIFE LESSON in there...)

Regardless of how much time is spent academically discussing the subject, 10 seconds of playing tells me that I prefer lower, narrower frets. If need be, I can play higher, wider frets, but I prefer lower, narrower ones.

Hard, low, narrow frets can last nearly indefinitely without the need for dressing due to wear (eg. Stainless steel).

Perhaps the life lesson is change the things you can and learn to accept those you can't. Frets are one of the things that you can have the way you want them.

[RustyZombie]

Originally Posted by BothHands

If you re-read your first post I think you'll see how it looks kinda like, "I (BlackmoresNight) play correctly, and you (BothHands) are an example of 'bad habits'..."

La De Dah.

I guess you didn't mean it that way, and after you added that additional information it all looks pretty harmless...but you didn't include that add'l info in your first post.

No harm done, and we all can use an occasional reality check regarding what kind of impression we're making online (ME especially )

I was attempting to say that its harder to unlearn a bad habit than it is to learn something a better way to begin with, and that I am glad my hands prevented me from ever learning one particular bad habit. But believe me, I have plenty of other bad habits concerning guitar that I still need to fix.

When it comes to guitar technique, there isn't so much right or wrong, as long as its something that isn't causing injury. But there is better and worse technique, and using only the pressure needed to consistently fret is something what would fall under better technique.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Regardless of how much time is spent academically discussing the subject, 10 seconds of playing tells me that I prefer lower, narrower frets. If need be, I can play higher, wider frets, but I prefer lower, narrower ones.

Why? Is there a playability benefit, or just the longevity aspect?

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Hard, low, narrow frets can last nearly indefinitely without the need for dressing due to wear (eg. Stainless steel).

In discussing having a new neck made for my Gurian, nobody wanted to do stainless frets. They said it's a bear to work with stainless wire, and it was suggested that stainless fret wire would not render an appropriate tone for an acoustic guitar (only suitable for electric guitars). I was disappointed to hear that, and I hope it's incorrect because I would LOVE to have SS frets.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Perhaps the life lesson is change the things you can and learn to accept those you can't. Frets are one of the things that you can have the way you want them.

Yes, that IS the life lesson I had in mind. Forcing things to bend to your will when obviously they don't do so naturally is usually a prelude to disappointment (or disaster), or so I've experienced/witnessed... 'Just sayin'... I'll have my frets 'over easy' with a side of hash browns. In fact, skip the potatoes, but I gotsta have the over easy.


Interesting point: One of my favorite bassists, Leland Sklar, has mandolin fretwire installed on his fretted bass(es). That's all he needs, and it gives him the option of sounding pretty much like a fretless bass when he wants to.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by BlackmoresNight

I was attempting to say that its harder to unlearn a bad habit than it is to learn something a better way to begin with, and that I am glad my hands prevented me from ever learning one particular bad habit. But believe me, I have plenty of other bad habits concerning guitar that I still need to fix.

When it comes to guitar technique, there isn't so much right or wrong, as long as its something that isn't causing injury. But there is better and worse technique, and using only the pressure needed to consistently fret is something what would fall under better technique.

Yep. I've been guilty of "gorilla grip" in the past, but started playing bass several years ago and that really brought the issue to my attention. First, my left hand was being worn to nub, and secondly, a rosewood fretless fingerboard will get chewed to bits in short order unless you LIGHTEN UP(!). So I did, and you know what's really GREAT? Playing bass (both fretless and fretted) improves my guitar playing tremendously, and vice versa.

I couldn't be happier, and BTW, I have two excellent 5-string basses that I bought on sale for about $350 each, new. So if any of you would like to try this, don't be sold a $3,000 bass (unless you WANT one ). You can get a helluva good bass (more than good enough for a "guitarist" ) for under $500, and a lot less if you buy USED.

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BothHands

Why? Is there a playability benefit, or just the longevity aspect?

My point is that it's about feel, not intellect. I prefer the feel of lower, narrower frets. That is the Benefit for me. Others will have their own preferences.

In discussing having a new neck made for my Gurian, nobody wanted to do stainless frets. They said it's a bear to work with stainless wire, and it was suggested that stainless fret wire would not render an appropriate tone for an acoustic guitar (only suitable for electric guitars). I was disappointed to hear that, and I hope it's incorrect because I would LOVE to have SS frets.

Lots of luthiers will use stainless frets, but usually charge more commensurate with the added labor and tool wear. An alternative is Evo that is easier to work but significantly more wear resistant than typical nickle silver frets.

As to the tone of the frets, I'll leave that discussion to others.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

My point is that it's about feel, not intellect. I prefer the feel of lower, narrower frets. That is the Benefit for me. Others will have their own preferences.

Okay. So it's definitely a playability thang for you. Thanks.

Guys like you know what the different options feel like, and you can rip 'em out and refret in an afternoon for only the cost of the wire. Guys like me pay and wait, with fingers tightly crossed. If we don't like the result we kick ourselves (hard) save up, pay and wait again... You can see why I'm glad of the opportunity for preliminary discussion.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

Lots of luthiers will use stainless frets, but usually charge more commensurate with the added labor and tool wear. An alternative is Evo that is easier to work but significantly more wear resistant than typical nickle silver frets.

AHHHHH! I sure do appreciate that nugget of information! Really, Charles. Thank you.

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

As to the tone of the frets, I'll leave that discussion to others.

A wise move, I'm sure. BUT...you know it'll be my next thread.
The nice thing about being a neophyte is I'm free to ask questions and not suffer too much criticism. I'm curious enough for three guys, and am putting the information to solid use (and I'm sure others here have similar questions to mine...)

[charles Tauber]

Originally Posted by BothHands

Guys like me pay and wait, with fingers tightly crossed. If we don't like the result we kick ourselves (hard) save up, pay and wait again... You can see why I'm glad of the opportunity for preliminary discussion.

"Guys like you", ideally, would go out and play a bunch of guitars. That's how "guys like me" learned about what we like. Academic discussion isn't a substitute for that: it is more like rolling the dice, paying your money and hoping it works out, as you describe.

you know it'll be my next thread.

Go for it.

[BothHands]

Originally Posted by charles Tauber

"Guys like you", ideally, would go out and play a bunch of guitars. That's how "guys like me" learned about what we like. Academic discussion isn't a substitute for that: it is more like rolling the dice, paying your money and hoping it works out, as you describe.

Maybe I just live in a backwater, but it took me three full years to find a guitar with 1-3/4" nut width that suited me, more or less. So my having opportunity to discover "the full spectrum of fret dimensions and materials" is a very long shot. In fact, I don't know how the average "guitar shopper" would know what size frets are used on a particular instrument, and only the very best sales people have any clue that "fret options" exist. Maybe if I keep my dial caliper, complete with tail-end depth gauge, in the car's glove compartment...

Yeah, I might feel 'something different' about a particular guitar, and it might turn out to be the result of an unusual fret specification, but the chances of me pinning that down as the cause (and especially the chances of the sales guy doing so) are very limited. Case in point: I never thought about high frets or narrow frets until I encountered the bumpity-bump-bump that is the topic of this thread.

I disagree with you on this, respectfully. I think you enjoy a somewhat rarefied perspective on such things. Being a luthier/builder forces you to be aware of specifics of which most players aren't aware and never consider unless the issue becomes problematic.

Who knows. Maybe I'll buy a terrible old beater and learn to refret it... 'Could happen...maybe...but no point in doing that until I learn what specific fret sizes feel like. I wouldn't know which wire to choose.

Maybe these things are discussed for guitars selling at a high price, as in handmade or custom guitars where the buyer has opportunity to specify options. Those of us who have (thus far) purchased only pre-manufactured or mass-produced guitars have no chance to specify anything. It's simple. You don't like it? Don't buy it.